# Cultures whose etiquette is rooted in now-inapplicable cultural situations **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 28, 2014, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultures-whose-etiquette-is-rooted-in-now-inapplicable-cultural-situations/705796 "2014-11-28T01:18:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultures-whose-etiquette-is-rooted-in-now-inapplicable-cultural-situations/705796/21 "2014-11-28T18:55:07Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > People still shake hands, even though everyone knows that’s how the majority of infectious diseases are spread. Come to think, the shaking hands custom came about as a way to show the other guy that you’re not about to kill him with a weapon – which, these days, may actually still be appropriate. I did not know that the majority of infectious debases are spread via hand shakes. I agree with the general premise, however. Shaking hands is a strange custom in modern times. I don’t like it. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultures-whose-etiquette-is-rooted-in-now-inapplicable-cultural-situations/705796/22 "2014-11-28T18:59:50Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > what are some examples from other cultures? Some etiquette tradition started with something that is no longer relevant, yet the tradition remains? Does saying “Hi Opal” count? ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultures-whose-etiquette-is-rooted-in-now-inapplicable-cultural-situations/705796/23 "2014-11-28T19:08:22Z")
Not sure this is a cultural tradition or just something my family does, but I have a notion it was imported from Italy. My grandparents would always refuse, at a minimum, at least one offer of food or drink. “Have some lemonade!” “No thank you, I’m not thirsty.” “But it’s so hot!” “Really, I’m fine.” “Please let me know if you change your mind.” “Well, maybe I’ll have a little.” According to my mother, her mother was at least once stymied when she visited a non-Italian couple who took her initial refusal of a drink as the final word on the matter… I don’t know what this custom might have been meant to accomplish, but it doesn’t do much now. I’m always annoyed when I find myself doing it. I _do_ want that lemonade! The corollary is a sort of constant checking in to see if a guest wants something. “Do you want more lemonade?” “No thank you.” “Just a little? I’m not going to drink it…” &c. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultures-whose-etiquette-is-rooted-in-now-inapplicable-cultural-situations/705796/24 "2014-11-28T20:19:18Z")
My favorite example in the industial world comes from Primo Levy’s _The Periodic Table_ (I think - anyway, from Levy). He was a chemist in Italy right after WW2, working in a chemical plant that made paints and varnishes, under some very primitive post-war conditions. Many years later, he came back to the plant (now much more modern) for a visit … and was surpised to see the workers there tossing an onion into the hot varnish. Why, he asked, were they doing that? They told him that it was in the recepie they were using - it said to toss an onion into the varnish as it heated up. Thing is, Levy had written that recepie - and the point of tossing an onion in was that, at the time (rght after WW2), the plant lacked such niceties as thermometers - the way to tell if the varnish was hot enough was to watch the onion - when it started to fry, the varnish was done. Years later, of course, the plant had sophisticated temperature controls and no need for frying onions - but because it was in the recepie, the onion was added to each batch. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultures-whose-etiquette-is-rooted-in-now-inapplicable-cultural-situations/705796/25 "2014-11-28T21:00:54Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > Guns. > > America has a gun culture that is totally different than any other country, and is rooted in now-inapplicable situations. The wild west was a short period in American history, but the effects on American culture and etiquette have lasted long after that period ended. > > (note: folks, let’s _not_ get into a gun debate here, okay? This is a thead about culture and etiquette.) Yes, this is a good example. And no, let’s not debate guns here. The culture and history is as it is. I have read that American gun culture, in addition to drawing from local needs, was also based on Scottish survivalist practices from older times that were brought over when so many poor Scottish peasants left their home for greener pa$ture$ and went into them thar mountains of Appalachia and started a system of strong extended family kinship relationships and emphasis on defense and combat that is strikingly similar to certain Scottish practices. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultures-whose-etiquette-is-rooted-in-now-inapplicable-cultural-situations/705796/26 "2014-11-28T21:07:33Z")
People who write emails using traditional English letter-writing styles such as writing Dear SoAndSo, blah blah blah, Sincerely, HugeAsshole. That information is already in the email header and is arguably unnecessary. But for a paper letter, having the names and/or addresses of the sender and recipient could be helpful for formulating a reply and/or recalling information later when the letter is pulled out again. Nowadays, all that info is right in the message headers. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultures-whose-etiquette-is-rooted-in-now-inapplicable-cultural-situations/705796/27 "2014-11-28T22:02:58Z")
Telephone etiquette for personal calls. It’s one of those weird-ass things. It took me forever to stop asking “may I please speak to \_\_\_” when I called somebody on their cell - what, I don’t know, maybe somebody else picked it up! Just saying “hey” seems so rude! And THEN I had to get rid of “This is \_\_\_” because people like my nephew just sigh and say “I KNOW, Aunt Zsofia.” So for friends and family I gave it up. And then I had to call a coworker/friend who refuses to get a cell phone, and it was a landline! And her husband answered! And I was all “uhhhh…” because somehow my brain forgot to say “Hi, may I speak to \_\_\_?” Even though I do it at work all the time, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultures-whose-etiquette-is-rooted-in-now-inapplicable-cultural-situations/705796/28 "2014-11-28T23:19:19Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > Guns. > > America has a gun culture that is totally different than any other country, and is rooted in now-inapplicable situations. The wild west was a short period in American history, but the effects on American culture and etiquette have lasted long after that period ended. > > (note: folks, let’s _not_ get into a gun debate here, okay? This is a thead about culture and etiquette.) Meaning you get to pull this assertion out of your ass, but anybody who responds to it is derailing. Got it.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultures-whose-etiquette-is-rooted-in-now-inapplicable-cultural-situations/705796/29 "2014-11-28T23:35:00Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > People still shake hands, even though everyone knows that’s how the majority of infectious diseases are spread. Come to think, the shaking hands custom came about as a way to show the other guy that you’re not about to kill him with a weapon – which, these days, may actually still be appropriate. I saw yesterday some literature at the retirement home where I work, encouraging seniors to adopt a version of the “fist bump” in place of handshakes. The idea, apparently, is briefer contact + not touching palms will reduce the likelihood of germs spreading. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultures-whose-etiquette-is-rooted-in-now-inapplicable-cultural-situations/705796/30 "2014-11-28T23:48:09Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > • Eating a bite of rice in between each bite of other foods. This allegedly started during a famine a couple hundred years ago, in which pretty much every crop failed … except for the rice crop. I’m from Japan and never heard this. And it sounds like a contrived explanation at something that doesn’t need an explanation. White rice doesn’t have a very strong flavor. If you have white rice and other dishes, it makes no sense to finish one before starting the other. You’d alternate frequently (or occasionally) so your mouth doesn’t get over-stimulated by the strong flavor of the side dish, or bored by the white rice. Also, if you eat at an [izakaya](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izakaya) or any upscale restaurant or hotel, they don’t bring out the rice until the very end of the meal. (Not white rice by itself though. Usually white rice + pickled vegetables + miso soup, at hotels and traditional Japanese meals. Usually some other rice-based dish at izakayas.) I suppose the pickled vegetables may be considered an obsolete custom, since fresh vegetables are available year-round now. Then again, the same could be said of Western pickled vegetables, preserves, cured meats, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultures-whose-etiquette-is-rooted-in-now-inapplicable-cultural-situations/705796/31 "2014-11-29T03:21:39Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > I’m from Japan and never heard this. Thanks for clearing it up 🙂 IIRC, it was an older book I read that in, like, from the 1960s, or maybe even the '50s. I could see some misunderstanding there, given the brief span of time covering friendly relations with Japan at that point. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultures-whose-etiquette-is-rooted-in-now-inapplicable-cultural-situations/705796/32 "2014-11-29T08:47:53Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Meaning you get to pull this assertion out of your ass, but anybody who responds to it is derailing. Got it.:rolleyes: no—what I meant is that I don’t want this thread to derail into a 2nd ammendment/gun rights thread. I mentioned “gun culture” as an example of what the OP is looking for: cultural values that originated for good reasons, but those reasons are inapplicable today. I intended my remarks to be an American version of the examples in other posts about chinese eating habits which developed during time of famine.Society has changed, but the etiquette hasn’t. Similary, America’s gun culture developed from the days of the wild west, and was reasonable for society at that time. But society has changed, yet the gun etiquette hasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultures-whose-etiquette-is-rooted-in-now-inapplicable-cultural-situations/705796/33 "2014-11-29T09:07:48Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I am sure there are some American examples. I think the theory behind not eating with your elbows on the table is that a working person’s elbows are likely to be petty dirty, and would quickly soil the table linens. Few of us have particularly dirty elbows these days. I remember reading a different origin story for that, possibly here on the SDMB: In situations where a dining table was simply a couple of long planks laid across two sawhorses and covered with a cloth, elbows on the table was a pretty effective way of knocking everything to the ground. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultures-whose-etiquette-is-rooted-in-now-inapplicable-cultural-situations/705796/34 "2014-11-29T09:11:44Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > Thanks for clearing it up 🙂 IIRC, it was an older book I read that in, like, from the 1960s, or maybe even the '50s. I could see some misunderstanding there, given the brief span of time covering friendly relations with Japan at that point. Yeah, I’ll second what **scr4** wrote. Never heard this. You _do_ hear that it’s important to “cycle” through your food, but the reasons given usually have to do with digestion. As far as the influence of traditional houses and their paper walls, I’ve read a Japanese book by an architect that made the argument that this was a major factor in shaping Japanese culture. Other people don’t go so far in their assessment, though. As far as “talking around” goes, you’ll find that the culture will vary from region to region. In Kyoto, people notoriously talk in a manner so indirect that many Japanese need “translators.” “Your project is… different” means “your plans are hideous get the fuck out of my office.” “The music was nice” means “that was the most beautiful thing I ever heard in my life. I can die in peace.” The reason given for this culture is that Kyoto was for a long time the political centre of Japan, and after centuries of instability people learned to talk in an ambivalent way. Osaka is right next to Kyoto, but it has always been a merchant’s city and there people much, much more extroverted. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultures-whose-etiquette-is-rooted-in-now-inapplicable-cultural-situations/705796/35 "2014-11-29T09:31:35Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I am sure there are some American examples. I think the theory behind not eating with your elbows on the table is that a working person’s elbows are likely to be petty dirty, and would quickly soil the table linens. Few of us have particularly dirty elbows these days. So there are places where it’s okay to put your elbows on the table? (I know there are places where it’s okay to eat with your hands. I haven’t been to any of these places. I was shocked when I was given a pear for dessert in Italy–a whole, unpeeled, pear–along with a knife and fork. Other people were cutting their pears. That seemed like the thing to do, so I did it. So obviously, that was a place where you didn’t eat ANYTHING with your hands, even a delicious pear.) I digress a little but I guess I associate “no elbows on table” with “use dining implements even for fried chicken.” Company etiquette. Just casually, we actually don’t care if someone’s elbows are on the table. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultures-whose-etiquette-is-rooted-in-now-inapplicable-cultural-situations/705796/36 "2014-11-29T11:25:03Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > My favorite example in the industial world comes from Primo Levy’s _The Periodic Table_ (I think - anyway, from Levy). He was a chemist in Italy right after WW2, working in a chemical plant that made paints and varnishes, under some very primitive post-war conditions. > > Many years later, he came back to the plant (now much more modern) for a visit … and was surpised to see the workers there tossing an onion into the hot varnish. Why, he asked, were they doing that? They told him that it was in the recepie they were using - it said to toss an onion into the varnish as it heated up. > > Thing is, Levy had written that recepie - and the point of tossing an onion in was that, at the time (rght after WW2), the plant lacked such niceties as thermometers - the way to tell if the varnish was hot enough was to watch the onion - when it started to fry, the varnish was done. > > Years later, of course, the plant had sophisticated temperature controls and no need for frying onions - but because it was in the recepie, the onion was added to each batch. You’re conflating two parts of his story _Chromium_ here. Primo didn’t write the recipe including the onion, he just came across the recipe and was later told the reason for the onion. But in the later (and main) part of the story he tells the tale of introducing an ingredient into a paint recipe himself, which remained in the recipe despite the reason for him introducing it long being redundant. It’s my favourite story by my favourite author. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultures-whose-etiquette-is-rooted-in-now-inapplicable-cultural-situations/705796/37 "2014-11-29T11:46:11Z")
> [@jovan](#): > > In Kyoto, people notoriously talk in a manner so indirect that many Japanese need “translators.” “Your project is… different” means “your plans are hideous get the fuck out of my office.” “The music was nice” means “that was the most beautiful thing I ever heard in my life. I can die in peace.” I had a couple teachers from Osaka that made a few digs at Kyoto, one of them was “that’s may be a little difficult” means “are you kidding, boss? I don’t think that’s even fucking **possible**.” ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultures-whose-etiquette-is-rooted-in-now-inapplicable-cultural-situations/705796/38 "2014-11-29T12:49:49Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > Similary, America’s gun culture developed from the days of the wild west Right - wasn’t Wyatt Earp one of the principal advocates for adoption of the second amendment? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultures-whose-etiquette-is-rooted-in-now-inapplicable-cultural-situations/705796/39 "2014-11-29T12:56:33Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > no—what I meant is that I don’t want this thread to derail into a 2nd ammendment/gun rights thread. > I mentioned “gun culture” as an example of what the OP is looking for: cultural values that originated for good reasons, but those reasons are inapplicable today. > > I intended my remarks to be an American version of the examples in other posts about chinese eating habits which developed during time of famine.Society has changed, but the etiquette hasn’t. > > Similary, America’s gun culture developed from the days of the wild west, and was reasonable for society at that time. But society has changed, yet the gun etiquette hasn’t. Stop babbling about “the wild west,” please. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultures-whose-etiquette-is-rooted-in-now-inapplicable-cultural-situations/705796/40 "2014-11-29T14:22:33Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > I’m from Japan and never heard this. And it sounds like a contrived explanation at something that doesn’t need an explanation. White rice doesn’t have a very strong flavor. If you have white rice and other dishes, it makes no sense to finish one before starting the other. You’d alternate frequently (or occasionally) so your mouth doesn’t get over-stimulated by the strong flavor of the side dish, or bored by the white rice. > > Also, if you eat at an [izakaya](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izakaya) or any upscale restaurant or hotel, they don’t bring out the rice until the very end of the meal. (Not white rice by itself though. Usually white rice + pickled vegetables + miso soup, at hotels and traditional Japanese meals. Usually some other rice-based dish at izakayas.) I’m not from Japan, but I spent a lot of time there, and this is exactly what I was going to say after reading the OP. The only thing I’d add is that sometimes you get (cold) soba instead of rice at the end of the meal. And if you don’t like cold soba (which I don’t) and if you had a very satisfying meal, it’s pretty tough to eat the soba. Try eating something you don’t like when you aren’t hungry! 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultures-whose-etiquette-is-rooted-in-now-inapplicable-cultural-situations/705796.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cultures-whose-etiquette-is-rooted-in-now-inapplicable-cultural-situations/705796.md?page=3)