# Curious when east Asian national identifier became a standard noun? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 29, 2025, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-east-asian-national-identifier-became-a-standard-noun/1017635 "2025-04-29T01:14:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-east-asian-national-identifier-became-a-standard-noun/1017635/1 "2025-04-29T01:14:26Z")
Not sure if this should be General questions, but since there will likely be no definitive answer I put it here. Something I have become increasingly aware of, entirely because of social media, is the sentence construct like… “As a Japanese I would like to contribute…” or "Having lived my whole life since age 3 in the USA, I am troubled as a Chinese I need to say… That just always triggers my awkward nerve as if someone had said “As an Irish, I don’t actually drink, but I do know…” Just curious when that entered English. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-east-asian-national-identifier-became-a-standard-noun/1017635/2 "2025-04-29T01:47:42Z")
It entered English when constructions like “Chinaman” became unacceptable. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-east-asian-national-identifier-became-a-standard-noun/1017635/3 "2025-04-29T01:55:54Z")
But did" as someone who is Chinese" or “as someone who is Japanese” become wrong? That is the formation I am used to. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-east-asian-national-identifier-became-a-standard-noun/1017635/4 "2025-04-29T02:00:19Z")
> [@wolfman](#): > > “As an Irish, I don’t actually drink, but I do know…” But you would say “as an American”, “as a German”, “as an Australian”, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-east-asian-national-identifier-became-a-standard-noun/1017635/5 "2025-04-29T02:05:01Z")
I know a little German… he’s sitting over there. ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-east-asian-national-identifier-became-a-standard-noun/1017635/6 "2025-04-29T02:09:44Z")
Per the OED: Chinese - “a native of China” - 1606 Japanese - “a native of Japan” - 1604 ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-east-asian-national-identifier-became-a-standard-noun/1017635/7 "2025-04-29T02:45:46Z")
Just yet another form of Dundrearyism And I should know, as a life-long practitioner of same. ---
**Author:** ![UDS1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e47774/32.png) [@UDS1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS1)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-east-asian-national-identifier-became-a-standard-noun/1017635/8 "2025-04-29T02:58:32Z")
Demonyms are a bit random. You can say _a German_, _an Italian_, _a Norwegian_, for a person from those countries. But you can’t say _a French_, _a Spanish_, _a Polish_, _a British_. Sometimes there’s a separate demonym (_a Spaniard_, _a Pole_, _a Swede_) and sometimes you just have to use the adjective to qualify an appropriate noun — _a French man_, _an Irish person_, _a British citizen_. There’s no rule about when you can just use the adjective on its own, when you use with a noun like _person_, and when there’s a separate demonyn — you just have to know. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-east-asian-national-identifier-became-a-standard-noun/1017635/9 "2025-04-29T03:37:54Z")
I’ve never heard of an Asian calling themselves by a noun when it didn’t end in an “n” or some other suitable letter. “As a Korean”…proper. “As an Indonesian”…proper. If it didn’t end properly, then they said “\_\_\_\_ person” - such as, “As a Chinese person…” “as a Japanese person”… Not saying what the OP said didn’t happen, but it doesn’t seem common. Are you seeing this on Reddit or social media? ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-east-asian-national-identifier-became-a-standard-noun/1017635/10 "2025-04-29T09:12:52Z")
> [@UDS1](#): > > Demonyms are a bit random. They’re certainly somewhat more random in English than in other languages, but no language is perfectly consistent. Just for fun, I built the table below using the two European languages I know best, French and German. (I’m not fluent in either but after almost ten years of immersion I can puzzle my way through.) French is more consistent, except when it isn’t (note Finnish). | **Country** | **English** | **French** | **German** | | --- | --- | --- | --- | | | | Orthographical note: the feminine form is pretty consistently represented by adding an “e” as shown in the first example. This is omitted in subsequent rows except where a different change is noted. | Orthographical note: both masculine/feminine nouns are included due to some inconsistencies in formation. Adjectival suffixes are omitted entirely due to their complexity; the base adjective is generally consistent. | | Germany French: Allemagne German: Deutschland | Person: a German Language: German Adjective: German | un(e) Allemand(e) allemand allemand(e) | ein Deutscher / eine Deutsche Deutsch deutsch | | Spain French: Espagne German: Spanien | Person: a Spaniard Language: Spanish Adjective: Spanish | un Espagnol espagnol espagnol | ein Spanier / eine Spanierin Spanisch spanisch | | France French: France German: Frankreich | Person: a Frenchman/woman Language: French Adjective: French | un Français français français | ein Franzose / eine Französin Französisch französisch | | England French: Angleterre German: England | Person: an Englishman/woman Language: English Adjective: English | un Anglais anglais anglais | ein Engländer / eine Engländerin Englisch englisch | | Italy French: Italie German: Italien | Person: an Italian Language: Italian Adjective: Italian | un(e) Italien(ne) italien italien(ne) | ein Italiener / eine Italienerin Italienisch italienisch | | the Netherlands French: Pays-Bas German: Niederlande | Person: a Dutchman/woman Language: Dutch Adjective: Dutch | un Néerlandais néerlandais néerlandais | ein Niederländer / ein Niederländerin Niederländisch niederländisch | | Sweden French: Suède German: Schweden | Person: a Swede Language: Swedish Adjective: Swedish | un Suédois suédois suédois | ein Schwede / eine Schwedin Schwedisch schwedisch | | Finland French: Finlande German: Finnland | Person: a Finn Language: Finnish Adjective: Finnish | un Finlandais finnois finlandais | ein Finne / eine Finnin Finnisch finnisch | | Czech Republic / Czechia French: République tchèque / Tchéquie Tschechische Republik / Tschechien | Person: a Czech Language: Czech Adjective: Czech | un(e) Tchèque (no suffix) tchèque tchèque (no suffix) | ein Tscheche / eine Tschechin Tschechisch tschechisch | | Hungary French: Hongrie German: Ungarn | Person: a Hungarian Language: Hungarian Adjective: Hungarian | un Hongrois hongrois hongrois | ein Ungar / eine Ungarin Ungarisch ungarisch | | Romania French: Roumanie German: Rumänien | Person: a Romanian Language: Romanian Adjective: Romanian | un Roumain roumain roumain | ein Rumäne / eine Rumänin Rumänisch rumänisch | | Denmark French: Danemark German: Dänemark | Person: a Dane Language: Danish Adjective: Danish | un Danois danois danois | ein Däne / eine Dänin Dänisch dänisch | | Greece French: Grèce German: Griechenland | Person: a Greek Language: Greek Adjective: Greek | un(e) Grec(que) grec grec(que) | ein Grieche / eine Griechin Griechisch griechisch | | Poland French: Pologne German: Polen | Person: a Pole Language: Polish Adjective: Polish | un Polonais polonais polonais | ein Pole / eine Polin Polnisch polnisch | Postscript: coding tables in Discourse is a pain in the ass. Anyway, I find this interesting and hope others do too. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-east-asian-national-identifier-became-a-standard-noun/1017635/11 "2025-04-29T13:33:48Z")
> [@UDS1](#): > > Sometimes there’s a separate demonym (_a Spaniard_, _a Pole_, _a Swede_) and sometimes you just have to use the adjective to qualify an appropriate noun — _a French man_, _an Irish person_, _a British citizen_. I’d say a Frenchman, an Irishman, and a Briton. At least assuming the French & Irish persons are known to be male. Conveniently, Briton is safely gender neutral. And if those three walk into your bar, the correct response is “What is this; some kind of joke?” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-east-asian-national-identifier-became-a-standard-noun/1017635/12 "2025-04-29T13:47:09Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > I’d say a Frenchman, an Irishman, and a Briton. “Briton” sounds quite dated to my ears (and the other two to some extent). “Brit” is what I’d use. Not sure I’ve ever heard “Briton” in conversation, but I’ve heard “Brit” quite often. Though it does have that clipped character to it that makes it sound a bit curt and dismissive. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-east-asian-national-identifier-became-a-standard-noun/1017635/13 "2025-04-29T14:08:10Z")
> [@wolfman](#): > > “As a Japanese I would like to contribute…” > or > "Having lived my whole life since age 3 in the USA, I am troubled as a Chinese I need to say… I’ve never heard or seen this - not even from people who speak English as a second or third language. As a general rule, it seems to be the adjectives ending in “n” that can be used as a noun - Italian, German, American, Canadian, Mexican and so on. There are some exceptions that use the same word for the language, the adjective and the person - Greek , for example. There are also adjectives that can be collective demonyms but not singular - you wouldn’t say “an English” but “the English” is correct. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-east-asian-national-identifier-became-a-standard-noun/1017635/14 "2025-04-29T14:17:47Z")
“Brit” seems to me to be about like “Yank”. Not pejorative exactly, but not neutrally respectful either. Agree that “Briton” is sorta archaic. IMO “Frenchman” and “Irishman” also are becoming dated due to being explicitly gendered. Even if you know the target is male, they still a bit off-key nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-east-asian-national-identifier-became-a-standard-noun/1017635/15 "2025-04-29T14:24:28Z")
Yeah, my original message messaged that, but I edited that part out for some reason. I’m so used to avoiding “-man” endings that it sounds a little off these days. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-east-asian-national-identifier-became-a-standard-noun/1017635/16 "2025-04-29T16:16:55Z")
I think it pretty much slid over from _the_ Japanese/Chinese (plural) into the singular, and as @Chronos said in the first response, about the time that the singular “Jap” and “Chinaman” became unacceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2025, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-east-asian-national-identifier-became-a-standard-noun/1017635/17 "2025-04-30T00:58:56Z")
I think of “Briton” as being a member of one specific tribe (as opposed to, say, the Picts or the Geats), which was mostly found in the isle of Great Britain, but partially also in what’s now northern France. “Brit” is the word for a modern resident of Great Britain. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2025, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-east-asian-national-identifier-became-a-standard-noun/1017635/18 "2025-04-30T01:18:42Z")
Happy birthday there @Chronos. Shame I just noticed a mere 3 hours before it comes to an end and your celebratory cake disappears for another year. ---
**Author:** ![UDS1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e47774/32.png) [@UDS1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS1)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2025, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-east-asian-national-identifier-became-a-standard-noun/1017635/19 "2025-04-30T01:20:37Z")
I agree that Briton primarily refers to the Celtic inhabitants of (much of) Great Britain before and during the Roman occupation. It can be used to refer to a contemporary denizen of Great Britain but there’s a sense, when it is so used, that A Point Is Being Made; lots of British people who would happily identify as “British” would hesitate before calling themselfs “Britons”. “Brit” is common but it’s informal; you wouldn’t use it in a formal context. Plus, it’s often pejorative, and therefore at risk of being understood as pejorative even when not so intended. ---
**Author:** ![jjakucyk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3d9bf3/32.png) [@jjakucyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjakucyk)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2025, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-east-asian-national-identifier-became-a-standard-noun/1017635/20 "2025-05-02T12:57:47Z")
Might this be correlated with increased prevalence of statements like “my dishwasher needs fixed” versus “needs fixing” or “needs to be fixed”? Maybe it’s completely unrelated, but it triggers my brain in the same way as hearing “as a Chinese”. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-east-asian-national-identifier-became-a-standard-noun/1017635.md?page=2)