# Curious when enough is enough? \[Der Trihs\] **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [May 15, 2013, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-enough-is-enough-der-trihs/658461 "2013-05-15T22:46:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-enough-is-enough-der-trihs/658461/261 "2013-05-21T16:41:40Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > IME it’s _mainly_\* people on the Right, politically, or Christians, who start threads pitting/complaining about DT, and are the most vociferous when one is started. > > Whether this stems from their perception of persecution on the board (witness recent threads asking that very question) coupled with the availability of a seemingly easy retaliatory target (can’t really think of a softer target on the Left, myself, given how many fellow-travellers profess no love for him), or whether there’s still some grudge-holding over earlier failed attempts to rally Board ire against him (like that particularly acrimonious Pit thread after he called some troop “thugs”), I can’t say. > > - Yes, I _know_ you personally started a thread calling him out on his alleged misogyny and IFAIK you’re neither a Rightist nor a Christian. I did say “mainly,” and I have explained elsewhere why I think that particular charge is over-zealous anyway. Fair enough. As for the argument that I’m being “overzealous” by referring to his beliefs as “misogyny”, I think if you really thought about it you’d change your mind. If you really want to argue that his claim that it would be prudent for all men to secretly video tape all their sexual encounters with women’s isn’t sexist but merely shows a “rather weird paranoia” about men, by the same logic you’d also have to argue that if he argued it would be prudent for the US government to keep all black men and Muslims under surveillance to ensure they weren’t committing crimes, then the person making such a claim wasn’t “racist” they were simply weirdly paranoid about black people and Muslims. I certainly wouldn’t find the latter suggestion acceptable and I doubt you would either. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-enough-is-enough-der-trihs/658461/262 "2013-05-21T21:08:48Z")
**Ibn Warraq** You have repeatedly claimed that **Der Trih** is a misogynist, without directly quoting him or providing links. Is that really fair? Reading this thread, it’s impossible to know either way without context. Secondly, your analogy is flawed. What **Der Trihs** supposedly advocated would be akin to secretly videotaping all your Muslim dinner guests because Muslims routinely make phony claims that you waterboard them after dessert. It’s fair to say that he detests republicans and religion, but it’s unfair to hang the misogynist label on him for one uncited incident that he himself claims was hyperbole. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-enough-is-enough-der-trihs/658461/263 "2013-05-21T21:17:29Z")
But if you fuck just one goat… ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-enough-is-enough-der-trihs/658461/264 "2013-05-21T22:27:21Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > **Ibn Warraq** > > You have repeatedly claimed that **Der Trih** is a misogynist, without directly quoting him or providing links. Is that really fair? Reading this thread, it’s impossible to know either way without context. > > Secondly, your analogy is flawed. What **Der Trihs** supposedly advocated would be akin to secretly videotaping all your Muslim dinner guests because Muslims routinely make phony claims that you waterboard them after dessert. > > It’s fair to say that he detests republicans and religion, but it’s unfair to hang the misogynist label on him for one uncited incident that he himself claims was hyperbole. I got your link right [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=593029). Here are some of the worst: > [@](#): > > Oh, please, that’s hardly the only study showing large numbers of false accusations for rape and child molestation. I recall one from the FBI showing that 65% of men in jail on rape charges physically could not be guilty; either DNA tests proved it, or they were demonstrably somewhere far away when the crime occurs. > > And why wouldn’t there be lots of false accusations, given that there’s no downside for the woman, the prevalence of hatred and disdain women in our culture have towards men, and that false accusations are outright encouraged by some feminists and divorce lawyers? Like the practice of photographing your husband bathing your children so you can accuse him of being a child molester - he’s touching naked kids! - if you end up divorcing him. Why not falsely accuse a man since after all, him being a man you “know” he’s scum anyway? > [@](#): > > Of course it does; men as a group are irrational about women, foolhardy. Women depend on men being irrational about them; if men were rational, under our present system they’d treat women (and children for that matter) like they were radioactive and never get within ten feet of them. > [@](#): > > And how many women would agree to have sex under those conditions? Women, as you are demonstrating, hate to admit that men have any reason to fear false accusations and take even the implication that such things are possible as an insult. They demand that men either be self destructively trusting towards them, or that men lie to them, or that men be celibate. You are (knowingly I’m sure) proposing a “solution” that simply won’t work because the women wouldn’t go along with it, ever. > > You are demanding that men be irrational and ignore our grossly slanted “justice” system, the real way that women act towards such requests, or both. > [@](#): > > No. Would say no, always. It’s not like she cares about his problems after all; or even wants to admit they exist. As threads like this help demonstrate. > [@](#): > > Don’t be silly; the problem is the law and the culture. Men aren’t telepaths and can’t tell if a woman is or is not the sort who will lie about it now, nor are they precognitive and able to tell if she’ll lie about it in a month or a year. No one given the near absolute license to lie is trustworthy. > > How much trust would you give to someone who had a gun pointed at your face and who you knew could kill you without punishment? Women can ruin men’s lives casually, with minimal effort and with little to no repercussions to themselves. No one can be trusted with that kind of power. > [@](#): > > That’ would be the “celibacy” option I already mentioned. But it just underlines my point that women depend on men being irrational about sex and women in our society; if men did the rational thing they’d just avoid going near women, much less having sex with them. > > And I note that everyone is dancing around trying to avoid giving a workable solution that doesn’t boil down to a man choosing between lifelong celibacy or leaving himself completely vulnerable to a false accusation. Instead we have classic man bashing; accusations of “sleaze” and now the claims that I’m not worthy of sex. And in the Pit thread accusations of homosexuality too; a classic. > [@](#): > > You presume that I think that the women are being reasonably by being offended; I don’t. > > And of course there are alternatives, despite how other people in this thread appear unwilling to come up with any. They just founder on the same problems. For example, another idea you see occasionally come up is insisting that women sign a consent form before sex; but again, that won’t work because women would take it as an insult and refuse. Anything but a wholly lopsided trust relationship appears to be anathema to the vast majority of women in this country. They can make it work because men are self destructively willing to put up with it, but that doesn’t make it fair or less self destructive for the men. > [@](#): > > No, but they want sex just like men do. So celibacy isn’t a solution for the larger problem, it just ensures everyone is unhappy. And just as important it isn’t a “solution” most people will accept so it’s useless. It’s the gender-relations equivalent of abstinence-only sex education. > [@](#): > > As has been repeatedly been pointed out, the answer to that question is “a woman”. One more time; the problem is the lopsided favoring of women when it comes to such accusations, not any particular woman. There’s no identifiable group of women that can be avoided to stay safe. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-enough-is-enough-der-trihs/658461/265 "2013-05-21T23:16:24Z")
Okay, so then what? How do you think those posts should have been moderated. The views expressed are extreme, no doubt about it. Unfathomable, really. On this board, it’s inevitable that someone would compare those ideas to racism. But could you get away with making similar remarks about whites attitudes towards blacks? Or more relevantly, could you make such sweeping, negative generalizations about men if you were a woman posting? What I’m asking is how do you moderate extreme viewpoints if they’re expressed politely and without obvious slurs? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-enough-is-enough-der-trihs/658461/266 "2013-05-21T23:21:36Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > It’s fair to say that he detests republicans and religion, but it’s unfair to hang the misogynist label on him for one uncited incident that he himself claims was hyperbole. Der Trihs never claimed it was hyperbole. Beyond that, if you seriously think that claiming that “the typical American woman” views all men as potential rapists and monsters isn’t sexist, you don’t understand the meaning of the term. It really is sad how many people wind up being apologists for misogyny and sexism on this board. I certainly haven’t seen people leaping forward to defend any of the board’s resident scientific racists. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-enough-is-enough-der-trihs/658461/267 "2013-05-21T23:24:23Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Okay, so then what? How do you think those posts should have been moderated. > > The views expressed are extreme, no doubt about it. Unfathomable, really. On this board, it’s inevitable that someone would compare those ideas to racism. But could you get away with making similar remarks about whites attitudes towards blacks? Or more relevantly, could you make such sweeping, negative generalizations about men if you were a woman posting? > > What I’m asking is how do you moderate extreme viewpoints if they’re expressed politely and without obvious slurs? Well, if a black poster asked me if I thought he fantasized about raping white women and I replied, “yes, that would make you a typical black man and plenty of black posters on this site have convinced me of this”, I suspect the mods would react. Is your position that they shouldn’t? ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-enough-is-enough-der-trihs/658461/268 "2013-05-21T23:30:13Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I got your link right [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=593029). Here are some of the worst: > > :dubious: I don’t see anything misogynist in those posts. I see the view of someone who thinks the current legal system is tilted towards women(or against men, rather) and is posting about their (fairly rational) extrapolation of the consequences of such a situation. There is nothing in those posts that says he hates women. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-enough-is-enough-der-trihs/658461/269 "2013-05-21T23:40:30Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Okay, so then what? How do you think those posts should have been moderated. > > The views expressed are extreme, no doubt about it. Unfathomable, really. On this board, it’s inevitable that someone would compare those ideas to racism. But could you get away with making similar remarks about whites attitudes towards blacks? Or more relevantly, could you make such sweeping, negative generalizations about men if you were a woman posting? > > What I’m asking is how do you moderate extreme viewpoints if they’re expressed politely and without obvious slurs? You asked about posts where he displayed misogynistic views – you didn’t say anything about them being moderated. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-enough-is-enough-der-trihs/658461/270 "2013-05-21T23:42:20Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > You asked about posts where he displayed misogynistic views – you didn’t say anything about them being moderated. Isn’t that what this thread is about? ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-enough-is-enough-der-trihs/658461/271 "2013-05-21T23:46:43Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Der Trihs never claimed it was hyperbole. > > Beyond that, if you seriously think that claiming that “the typical American woman” views all men as potential rapists and monsters isn’t sexist, you don’t understand the meaning of the term. > > It really is sad how many people wind up being apologists for misogyny and sexism on this board. > > I certainly haven’t seen people leaping forward to defend any of the board’s resident scientific racists. Whatever with all that bullshit. I never defended sexism or racism. If your going to assign views to me I don’t hold or call me an apologist, then just forget it. Your’re the one who tossing accusations around. **Guin** shouldn’t have had to find those links, you should have. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-enough-is-enough-der-trihs/658461/272 "2013-05-21T23:57:55Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Isn’t that what this thread is about? Sort of. It’s about repeated patterns of behavior being modded, but then allowed to continue. The Mods are saying that a note or even a warning is for the thread it was in only, so chronic behavior is excusable as long as the poster stops doing whatever got them pounded on in a particular thread. Personally, I think that’s BS, since I’ve seen folks banned and the reason given was repeated patterns of behavior through multiple threads, but I also know that long time posters (such as Der…and many participating in this thread) are given more slack. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-enough-is-enough-der-trihs/658461/273 "2013-05-22T00:01:14Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Whatever with all that bullshit. I never defended sexism or racism. Sorry, I thought you were arguing that its not sexist to claim “the typical American woman” thinks that all men are potential rapists and monsters and that its sexist to say men should surreptiously videotape all their sexual encounters with women to ensure they aren’t falsely accused of rape. Apologies for the confusion. I thought you were defending Der Trihs’ misogyny but I’m glad to be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-enough-is-enough-der-trihs/658461/274 "2013-05-22T00:43:56Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Isn’t that what this thread is about? Even if it is, I was answering a question that YOU asked. Now you’re moving the goal posts on me and saying that it isn’t what you wanted because he’s still within the rules. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-enough-is-enough-der-trihs/658461/275 "2013-05-22T01:11:13Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > If you really want to argue that his claim that it would be prudent for all men to secretly video tape all their sexual encounters with women’s isn’t sexist but merely shows a “rather weird paranoia”… > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Der Trihs never claimed it was hyperbole. This accusation is kicked around constantly. It seems to grow with the retelling. I won’t comment on its merit, but Der’s characterization of it follows: > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It was a comment pointing out how ridiculous it would be if men acted as paranoid towards women as certain female posters were recommending that women should be towards men. I’ve never recorded anyone’s sexual encounters; I don’t even own a camera. And here’s Der’s first post from the offending thread: > [@What do you think about recording sex sessions?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-recording-sex-sessions/567602/20): > > That he was being either prudent or just liked recorded sex. > > Same. I’ve always been told that it’s perfectly reasonable for women to treat every man they meet as a potential rapist; I fail to see why it’s then wrong to return the favor and treat every woman like a potential accuser. The first post at least substantiates Der’s claim. I’ll note that the thread is entitled: “What do you think about recording sex sessions?” and that Der wasn’t exactly alone in his opinion, though I assume nobody else was as strident about it. (I haven’t read the entire thread.) Also I admit I was creeped out when I gleaned that certain posters seemed to believe that a false rape accusation wasn’t really a devastating smear. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-enough-is-enough-der-trihs/658461/276 "2013-05-22T01:45:02Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Even if it is, I was answering a question that YOU asked. Now you’re moving the goal posts on me and saying that it isn’t what you wanted because he’s still within the rules. :dubious: I didn’t ask **you** anything. **Ibn Warraq** was basically calling **Der Trihs** a misogynist, as though it was an established fact. The _reason_ I asked is because this is a thread about **Der Trihs** supposedly getting away with violating board rules. So while I appreciate you posting those quotes, the _goal posts_ have been in the same spot the entire time. Since this is a thread about the rules, my intent was to find out what **Ibn Warraq** believed should be done about it. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-enough-is-enough-der-trihs/658461/277 "2013-05-22T01:56:18Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > This accusation is kicked around constantly. It seems to grow with the retelling. I won’t comment on its merit, but Der’s characterization of it follows: And here’s Der’s first post from the offending thread: The first post at least substantiates Der’s claim. I’ll note that the thread is entitled: “What do you think about recording sex sessions?” and that Der wasn’t exactly alone in his opinion, though I assume nobody else was as strident about it. (I haven’t read the entire thread.) > > Also I admit I was creeped out when I gleaned that certain posters seemed to believe that a false rape accusation wasn’t really a devastating smear. Er… in the post you’re quoting Der Trihs specifically says a man who secretly recorded all his sexual encounters without their knowledge was being “prudent”. As to the claim that he was hardly alone in thinking that, so what. Lots of people on this board insist that blacks are mentally inferior, Muslims are violent and prone to terrorism, or that US foreign policy is controlled by Jews, all of whom deny they’re bigots. That doesn’t mean they aren’t. Sadly, while I like this board, it does attract large numbers of socially awkward young men who have a difficult time getting to know members of the opposite sex and sexual frustration in men often generates hostility towards women. The part is not aimed at anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Ibanez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a4c791/32.png) [@Ibanez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibanez)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-enough-is-enough-der-trihs/658461/278 "2013-05-22T02:19:19Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I got your link right [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=593029). Here are some of the worst: :dubious: I didn’t read anything hateful towards women in those quotes. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-enough-is-enough-der-trihs/658461/279 "2013-05-22T02:38:27Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Since this is a thread about the rules, my intent was to find out what **Ibn Warraq** believed should be done about it. While I find his misogyny morally reprehensible, it’s not against the rules. With few exceptions, most notably claiming that Jews have a propensity for terrorism, the mods have always allowed people to make bigoted comments. Anyway, while IMHO those were his worst offenses, they weren’t what he received mod notes for. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-enough-is-enough-der-trihs/658461/280 "2013-05-22T02:42:05Z")
> [@Ibanez](#): > > I didn’t read anything hateful towards women in those quotes. Fair enough. Lots of people insist its not hateful to claim the Holocaust is a hoax, gays suffer from a mental disorder, Muslims are barbaric savages, and blacks are mentally inferior. Thankfully most people disagree. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-enough-is-enough-der-trihs/658461.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curious-when-enough-is-enough-der-trihs/658461.md?page=15)