# Curlcoat, what's the deal with you? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 22, 2008, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-whats-the-deal-with-you/478379 "2008-12-22T22:48:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-whats-the-deal-with-you/478379/181 "2009-01-05T00:51:20Z")
> [@EJsGirl](#): > > “Tons of money?” How much would that be? My property taxes are about 3% of my income, and my tax rate is 1.1% of the home’s appraised value. That is certainly not outrageous. Apparently your income is higher than ours. However, 3% of income going to a babysitting service is still a lot of good money being thrown after bad. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-whats-the-deal-with-you/478379/182 "2009-01-05T00:52:57Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > So the answer is yes: your experiences have colored your opinions of those who are different. Not in the way originally stated. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-whats-the-deal-with-you/478379/183 "2009-01-05T00:59:44Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Generally, yes, they do. > > If there is a salestax, they pay it. (There is no cash register in the country programmed to accept a keystroke indicating “illegal alien, suppress the tax.”) > > If there is a property tax, they pay it. No tax district tells the appraisers to skip over any house owned by an illegal alien or any assessor to withhold the bills to such a house. (And no landloerd fails to include property taxes in the amount he or she charges for rent.) > > If there is income tax, they _might_ avoid it, but they will probably have to pay it. Housekeepers and gardeners who are being paid under the table might get away with no income tax (thanks to the _largesse_ of those people weathy enough to actually have housekeepers and gardeners who are willing to cheat the government). However, the majority of illegal immigrants are working in factories or for construction companies or farms that are large enough to attract the attention of the IRS, (which will penalize them if they cannot produce withholding statements for their employees). So the majority of illegals are actually paying taxes deducted from their paychecks, using forged or stolen Social Securty numbers, but they are severely limited in their ability to file tax forms with the IRS, so they do not get back any of the refunds due to the sort of exemptions that legal folks get. I came in here to say this. In cases where they don’t have forged or stolen SS#s they have an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number which basically functions as a social security number. ITINs are obtainable without proof of citizenship. Also, with my admittedly cursory understanding of linguistics I have to take issue with the idea that children having to learn English is holding everybody back. Teaching a fourth grader a second language is not the same thing as teaching it to an adult. Children are much more receptive to learning new languages. It is much more likely that those illiterate employees you ran into aren’t the children of immigrants but immigrants themselves. Some kids come here as young as 15, 16, 17 with no other family. At that age they might have a more difficult time picking up the language. But if you have a child in an English speaking country being taught English in the classroom they are most likely going to pick it up fast. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-whats-the-deal-with-you/478379/184 "2009-01-05T01:47:23Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Apparently your income is higher than ours. However, 3% of income going to a babysitting service is still a lot of good money being thrown after bad. What the fuck are you talking about? The public school system is not a babysitting service- stop flaunting your ignorance like you’re proud of it. You know NOTHING about it but continue to spew nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-whats-the-deal-with-you/478379/185 "2009-01-05T01:57:34Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > No, it isn’t, but in fairness to curlcoat, tax rates vary wildly, and we don’t know what she pays where she lives. For instance, my rate is 8.65% of the assessed value of my house (and property values here are high). She has said she lives in southern California, and our property tax rates are quite low- certainly nothing near your rate- yowch. Passed in 1978, Proposition 13 limited property taxes to 1 percent of assessed value (plus bond debt) and also allowed values to rise by 2 percent a year — unless the housing market doesn’t support the 2 percent increase. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-whats-the-deal-with-you/478379/186 "2009-01-05T02:13:02Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Apparently your income is higher than ours. However, 3% of income going to a babysitting service is still a lot of good money being thrown after bad. Math not a strong suit either, I see. A property tax of 3% of your income does not mean 3% of your income is being spent on education. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-whats-the-deal-with-you/478379/187 "2009-01-05T02:22:31Z")
> [@EJsGirl](#): > > She has said she lives in southern California, and our property tax rates are quite low- certainly nothing near your rate- yowch. Passed in 1978, Proposition 13 limited property taxes to 1 percent of assessed value (plus bond debt) and also allowed values to rise by 2 percent a year — unless the housing market doesn’t support the 2 percent increase. Sorry, I didn’t catch it when she said where she lived. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-whats-the-deal-with-you/478379/188 "2009-01-05T02:57:35Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > Can I get a cite for a post where someone has suggested that you should love their child more than you should love your cat? I have certainly seen people say that they love their own children more than their own pets. I have seen people say that a pet owner’s love for their pet is not comparable to a parent’s love for their child. I have not seen anyone suggest that you should love their child more than you love your cat, however, so maybe you could give me a pointer to where that has occurred. Check out any post responding to the idea that I would save my pet rather than 20 strangers. There are also some that indicate that simply because their child is human it is more “worthy” of love than my cat, tho those are not quite as specific. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-whats-the-deal-with-you/478379/189 "2009-01-05T03:02:02Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Sorry, I didn’t catch it when she said where she lived. Actually, you’re right, she didn’t- it’s in her profile. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-whats-the-deal-with-you/478379/190 "2009-01-05T03:14:43Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > Kids who do not speak English are not put in classes with non-English speakers. They are put in ESL classes until they can pass a proficiency test. A simple Google search turned up [this program](http://www.quincypublicschools.com/district/departments/esl_mainpage.shtml) that exemplifies what I mean. Thus, the non-English speaking kids are not “holding all the other children back.” They are separated until they can keep up. Of course, once they transition to mainstream classes, they are often not as proficient as their native speaking classmates, but your claim that they are in classes with native speakers when they cannot speak English is false IME. Massachusetts??? This applies to where I pay taxes how? As for splitting hairs WRT whether they can speak any English as opposed to being proficient in it, how well do you suppose a student can learn to read, write and do math in English if they have just had one or two ESL classes? > [@](#): > > But you resent having to pay to adequately fund the education of others. Please pay attention. I resent having to pay to fund glorified babysitters. (Not that your example means what you seem to think it does.) ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-whats-the-deal-with-you/478379/191 "2009-01-05T03:15:55Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Please pay attention. I resent having to pay to fund glorified babysitters. (Not that your example means what you seem to think it does.) I’ll admit that the people who paid for your education should demand a refund. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-whats-the-deal-with-you/478379/192 "2009-01-05T03:27:08Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > As for splitting hairs WRT whether they can speak any English as opposed to being proficient in it, how well do you suppose a student can learn to read, write and do math in English if they have just had one or two ESL classes? Hm. I have been giving you the benefit of the doubt so far and assuming that you have a basic level of knowledge about the stuff you’re talking about, but now I don’t think so. I did my student teaching (I am not a teacher now, just for the record) in Illinois, and the large high school I taught at had a comprehensive ESL program that was designed to integrate students into mainstream classrooms in a relatively short period of time. It was very effective. It wasn’t just a matter of giving them a couple of English classes and then throwing them to the wolves. Do you have any idea what ESL programs typically look like? Do you understand that they are not just English classes? Saying “You should save 20 random strangers rather than your pet” is not the same as saying “You should love my child more than you love your pet.” Come on. And anyway, it is your frankly bizarre assertion that you would rather save your pet than 20 strangers (apparently on the grounds that some people do crappy things and therefore it’s OK to let strangers die, because, you know, they might have done crappy things) that originally made me think that you are not quite playing with a full deck of cards. Really, valuing the life of a pet over the lives of 20 other human beings is not normal or OK. It’s not just a “different and legitimate choice.” It’s messed up and wrong. And as far as public schools being “glorified babysitters,” I’m afraid I’m going to have to ask for some cites on that one. Pick the school district of your choice and prove, via test scores, attendance rates, graduation rates, or other legitimate criteria, that the majority of students there are simply sitting there all day being looked after and are not learning anything. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-whats-the-deal-with-you/478379/193 "2009-01-05T03:35:01Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > With all due respect, you aren’t supposed to be _personally_ getting something out of the schools. For that matter, neither am I, nor any other adult…the schools aren’t for us. If you have a beef with the quality of the schools, I’m with you there, but the purpose of the school isn’t to give you a place to walk your dogs. The claim of the worth of public schools is that they are teaching the leaders of tomorrow, or at the very least, the next generation of worthwhile contributing adults. With our public schools, we are doing good if they stay in school until they finish high school and they stay out of jail/don’t get pregnant/don’t end up on the dole. None of us appear to be getting anything out of my public schools except babysitting, and even that they aren’t all that good at. > [@](#): > > Regarding what I said about vandalism…I’m guessing that there was some kind of problem on school property in your district, or I doubt the district would have spent money to put a fence up. Why don’t you contact the district and find out why the fence is up? Maybe there’s a good reason, and if you knew what it was, it wouldn’t aggravate you so much. I don’t know - probably not. No matter what the reason is, even a good one, it still would bother me that the one last half way decent return for my taxes is gone. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-whats-the-deal-with-you/478379/194 "2009-01-05T03:40:40Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > The claim of the worth of public schools is that they are teaching the leaders of tomorrow, or at the very least, the next generation of worthwhile contributing adults. With our public schools, we are doing good if they stay in school until they finish high school and they stay out of jail/don’t get pregnant/don’t end up on the dole. None of us appear to be getting anything out of my public schools except babysitting, and even that they aren’t all that good at. Oh, that’s ridiculous. Of course they are doing more than just babysitting…most kids who graduate from the public schools go to college these days, and then they get jobs. If you are trying to say that the majority of HS grads go to jail or end up on the dole, I am also going to ask for cites for that. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-whats-the-deal-with-you/478379/195 "2009-01-05T03:42:13Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Massachusetts??? This applies to where I pay taxes how? It’s likely representative of your average ESL program, I’d say. Obviously there is no way for me to know what school district you live in, so how could I provide a cite that applies directly to where you pay taxes? I guarantee your area has a similar program in place. Look it up. Or prove me wrong by offering a countercite, in which case I will concede that I am wrong. > [@](#): > > As for splitting hairs WRT whether they can speak any English as opposed to being proficient in it, how well do you suppose a student can learn to read, write and do math in English if they have just had one or two ESL classes? Did you even read the cite, or just see Massachusetts and turn off? There is a program that moves kids from level 0 to level 5, which is unlikely to happen with 1-2 classes unless the kid was already close to level 5 to begin with. They have to pass tests to move on to the next level. The program provides an English Immersion bilingual counselor, an ESL teacher, English Immersion bilingual teachers and a bilingual teacher aide. Students who do not speak English or barely speak English are not just dumped in regular ed classes to “drag the other children down.” It is not in the school’s best interest to do that, since those kids have to take the standardized tests whether they speak English or not, and the district is assessed based on those tests. They want students to do as well as possible. I provided at least one cite that backs up my claim. Can you do the same? > [@](#): > > Please pay attention. I resent having to pay to fund glorified babysitters. (Not that your example means what you seem to think it does.) So the school where you went was not glorified babysitting, just underfunded, but the school in your district now is just glorified babysitting? How do you know this? What exactly do you know about what goes on in your local school district? Is this just another opinion stated as fact? Please find your school’s No Child Left Behind report card online and post a link, so we can have at least some modicum of information to judge for ourselves. Pardon me if I can’t take your word for it. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-whats-the-deal-with-you/478379/196 "2009-01-05T03:43:37Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > …Please pay attention. I resent having to pay to fund glorified babysitters. (Not that your example means what you seem to think it does.) You’re paying for nothing. Your husband is supporting you, as you await more public funds for being “disabled.” (I’ll bet there was many a dry eye when you left your job.) So–your public education was not so great. (But who could be so dumbassed as not to realize that African-Americans had slaves in their ancestry? You claim your husband is no better. **Thanks for not reproducing!** ) You did learn to read–so why not continue to educate yourself? Why not learn something about the world outside? Even as a troll, you’re a bit of a bore… ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-whats-the-deal-with-you/478379/197 "2009-01-05T03:45:47Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > The claim of the worth of public schools is that they are teaching the leaders of tomorrow, or at the very least, the next generation of worthwhile contributing adults. With our public schools, we are doing good if they stay in school until they finish high school and they stay out of jail/don’t get pregnant/don’t end up on the dole. None of us appear to be getting anything out of my public schools except babysitting, and even that they aren’t all that good at. You are completely full of shit. You have no idea whatsoever what goes on in a public school classroom. > [@](#): > > _I don’t know - probably not. No matter what the reason is, even a good one, it still would bother me that the one last half way decent return for my taxes is gone._ So, you don’t think that some of your property taxes go to things besides schools? You are wrong, and again, an idiot. In general, property taxes paid to the state of California are distributed as follows- City- 21% County- 27% State/Schools- 45% Special Districts- 7% Special districts are water, irrigation, sanitation, parks & recreation, mosquito abatement, fire and others. Redevelopment agencies are also special districts. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-whats-the-deal-with-you/478379/198 "2009-01-05T03:51:59Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Again, I’m failing to get your point, or understand what you are complaining about here. Is your problem with educating children? Is it with the cost of educating children? Is it that you think that the goverment spending on children is wasteful and ineffficient? Is it that you don’t have children, so you resent tax dollars being spent on them? Is it that you think that government facilities should be available to the general public for use, regardless of what their actual purpose is? Your points go all over the place, and don’t seem to have a thesis to support. Actually, if you read what I’ve written, it all points to me not wanting to pay taxes to schools that are no longer educating anyone. I’m not really thrilled with having to pay to educate other peoples lifestyle choices, but I do realize that there are far too many parents out there that wouldn’t be bothered to pay to educate their children and educated people are far more likely to be good members of society. It’s a catch 22 - irresponsible people pump children into the system, forcing responsible people to pay for them or pay the consequences later, yet this tends to create entitlement problems. Its a vicious circle. > [@](#): > > What have you tried to learn from your shitty experiences? From what I can tell, all you’ve learned is how to be angry. That would be you reading something into what I say that isn’t there. I may be disgusted, weary, jaded but anger requires too much. I gave up long ago wasting any strong emotions on the hope that mankind would get a clue about things like this. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-whats-the-deal-with-you/478379/199 "2009-01-05T03:52:24Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Check out any post responding to the idea that I would save my pet rather than 20 strangers. That has nothing to do with love. I love my cat but I don’t love my next door neighbour. I’d still choose my neighbour’s life over my cat’s. The value you place in a life isn’t the same as love. If you saw a stranger on the street about to step unawares in front of a speding bus would you reach out and grab them? Does that mean you’re in love with them? I’ll also echo the request for a cite that more than half of public school students go to jail or end up on the dole. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-whats-the-deal-with-you/478379/200 "2009-01-05T04:08:56Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Actually, if you read what I’ve written, it all points to me not wanting to pay taxes to schools that are no longer educating anyone. I’m not really thrilled with having to pay to educate other peoples lifestyle choices, but I do realize that there are far too many parents out there that wouldn’t be bothered to pay to educate their children and educated people are far more likely to be good members of society. It’s a catch 22 - irresponsible people pump children into the system, forcing responsible people to pay for them or pay the consequences later, yet this tends to create entitlement problems. Its a vicious circle. I’ve read everything you’ve written, and you’re talking in circles. Are you mad about supporting other peoples’ lifestyle choices, as you say here? Are you mad because of the state of education these days? About high taxes? About gates around schoolyards? Every time anyone challenges one of your points, you just switch to a new point. > [@](#): > > That would be you reading something into what I say that isn’t there. I may be disgusted, weary, jaded but anger requires too much. I gave up long ago wasting any strong emotions on the hope that mankind would get a clue about things like this. Things like what? Please clue us all in. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-whats-the-deal-with-you/478379.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-whats-the-deal-with-you/478379.md?page=11)