# curlcoat...yet again. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 18, 2012, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-yet-again/622298 "2012-05-18T10:11:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-yet-again/622298/121 "2012-05-21T11:23:57Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Yeah, I guess you’re right - she shouldn’t have that opinion. It’s wrong. Yes, some opinions are shitty and wrong. Is this a new concept for you? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-yet-again/622298/122 "2012-05-21T11:29:43Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > Dave, methinks **Cat Whisperer** is playing some sort of weird devil’s advocate. > > Or something. I \*think \*\*\*Cat Whisperer \*\*is playing a little reading comprehension game. It’s the difference between having an opinion and working to make that opinion law. I think. I hope. I think that **curlcoat** ’s pro-abortion stance has only the weight of her personal opinion\* but it’s not clear that she’s actually working to make her rubric into law. Which \*would \*be evil and reprehensible. Opinion=roll eyes and a person I won’t get to babysit Lobbyist=eugenics promoter There \*is \*a difference. \*and actually may be more pro-I-get-to-decide-who-should-parent than pro-abortion. It was pointed out that what I read as a pro-mandatory-abortion post in that other thread could be interpreted as a pro-forced-adoption post instead. Fair enough. Still fucking stupid. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-yet-again/622298/123 "2012-05-21T11:40:42Z")
Yeah, but those sorts of contortions are ludicrous. Saying someone is evil for holding an opinion is not infringing on their right to have a view any more than facetiously agreeing that someone should not have an opinion is restricting the right of the person to hold the view that certain opinions are evil. Opinions are not consequence or criticism free. Nobody here has expressed the opinion that their opponents should be persecuted by the government for holding their views and even if they were, that isn’t actually infringing their right to hold an opinion. Hell, banning them from the message board would not be a violation of their right to hold an opinion, since having a message board as a platform is not a constitutionally defended right. Actually arresting them or using other tactics to silence them would be. Not to mention that she didn’t call out ZPG for doing the exact same thing. Disregarding the substantial differences between Dave Hartwick and ZPG Zealot (and ZPG’s attempt to equivocate), having an abortion is an action and holding it as repugnant is a value judgement. Pretence is an opinion. If having a negative value judgement about something indicates that one does not support the right to do it, then saying that an attitude is evil as much infringing on a right to hold an opinion as saying that pretence is repugnant. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-yet-again/622298/124 "2012-05-21T12:06:16Z")
I’m not sure I’ve correctly parsed all the negatives in your post, but…I think I agree with you? \*\*curlcoat \*\*and \*\*ZPG \*\*have the right to the opinion that people they feel are inferior should have abortions or adopt out their babies, even if they don’t want to. I have the right to think they are idiots for holding such an opinion. I also have the right to think that their holding that opinion but not engaging in action to make their opinion law makes them slightly less evil than people who \*do \*take action to make their opinion law, like eugenics supporters (and, for that matter, those who make laws to \*restrict \*access to abortion). Does that sum it up adequately? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-yet-again/622298/125 "2012-05-21T13:41:47Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > Dave, methinks **Cat Whisperer** is playing some sort of weird devil’s advocate. > > Or something. I wasn’t playing at anything - I decided that forcing people to have abortions is not a healthy opinion. My heart isn’t in this debate any longer. I’m going to bow out now. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-yet-again/622298/126 "2012-05-21T22:26:01Z")
Well I guess I’m not allowed to go on vacation without internet access for three whole days, lest some overly sensitive baby hugger takes exception to me trying to understand the subject. You know, something I am surrounded by, forced to accept and in many ways pay for? Excuse me for trying to find some folks who are intelligent and polite enough to give me some answers (there are a few in that thread). Meanwhile, back at the Pit we have people posting the usual lies, and I only glanced over this thread. Its amazing how people in the vast majority - those who have reproduced or want to - are so unbelievable sensitive to any mention that it not be done by everyone. For example, where did I ever say anything about feeling superior to anyone? I didn’t of course, all I’ve said is the obvious - there are times when a woman having and keeping a baby is a terrible idea, both for her and for the baby. Another example - where have I ever “blamed the baby”? Again, I haven’t, everything I’ve said in that thread has been directed at the pregnant person and those around her. As for me thinking I have more right to exist than potential babies that will be born to unloving parents as I was? Well shit, if nothing else maybe I actually learned from that experience, unlike so many who just go forth and repeat the pattern onto their children. Forced abortion? Again, nothing I’ve said, just what people want to believe because those who don’t agree with them must be evil, right? Anyway, back to your regular stupidity. There is no way people like you all would ever be able to explain why you think it’s a good thing for obviously poor prospective parents to have children, and I am beginning to think it is either because you cannot comprehend doing something different from society, or because you know you are being extremely selfish and are therefore trying to protect yourself from having to acknowledge it. Oh, and **Cat Whisperer** , good try. See how saying one little thing gets added to, twisted around and blown up if a select few (I’m looking at you **Meyer6** ) don’t agree? Wasn’t that fun? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-yet-again/622298/127 "2012-05-21T23:10:39Z")
You are not evil. You are a loon. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-yet-again/622298/128 "2012-05-21T23:18:29Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Well I guess I’m not allowed to go on vacation without internet access for three whole days, lest some overly sensitive baby hugger takes exception to me trying to understand the subject. You know, something I am surrounded by, forced to accept and in many ways pay for? Excuse me for trying to find some folks who are intelligent and polite enough to give me some answers (there are a few in that thread). > > Meanwhile, back at the Pit we have people posting the usual lies, and I only glanced over this thread. Its amazing how people in the vast majority - those who have reproduced or want to - are so unbelievable sensitive to any mention that it not be done by everyone. For example, where did I ever say anything about feeling superior to anyone? I didn’t of course, all I’ve said is the obvious - there are times when a woman having and keeping a baby is a terrible idea, both for her and for the baby. > > Another example - where have I ever “blamed the baby”? Again, I haven’t, everything I’ve said in that thread has been directed at the pregnant person and those around her. As for me thinking I have more right to exist than potential babies that will be born to unloving parents as I was? Well shit, if nothing else maybe I actually learned from that experience, unlike so many who just go forth and repeat the pattern onto their children. > > Forced abortion? Again, nothing I’ve said, just what people want to believe because those who don’t agree with them must be evil, right? > > Anyway, back to your regular stupidity. There is no way people like you all would ever be able to explain why you think it’s a good thing for obviously poor prospective parents to have children, and I am beginning to think it is either because you cannot comprehend doing something different from society, or because you know you are being extremely selfish and are therefore trying to protect yourself from having to acknowledge it. > > Oh, and **Cat Whisperer** , good try. See how saying one little thing gets added to, twisted around and blown up if a select few (I’m looking at you **Meyer6** ) don’t agree? Wasn’t that fun? What, in your opinion, should we do about all these people having “terrible idea” babies? Should we just heap scorn upon them, or actually DO something? ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-yet-again/622298/129 "2012-05-22T00:06:58Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > What, in your opinion, should we do about all these people having “terrible idea” babies? Should we just heap scorn upon them, or actually DO something? We should encourage people in bad idea pregnancy situations to do the right thing: not continue the pregnancy. We should provide them with free abortions and birth control and encourage them to to use these options. I would even me willing to kick in a few grand of my tax dollars as freebie mad money for anyone that chooses to have an abortion rather than bring a child into a bad situation. I have done it often enough before. And heaping scorn on idiots that continue bad idea pregnancies does DO something, it discourages others from following their example. ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-yet-again/622298/130 "2012-05-22T00:07:05Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Its amazing how people in the vast majority - those who have reproduced or want to - are so unbelievable sensitive to any mention that it not be done by everyone. > > Forced abortion? Again, nothing I’ve said, just what people want to believe because those who don’t agree with them must be evil, right? > > Anyway, back to your regular stupidity. There is no way people like you all would ever be able to explain why you think it’s a good thing for obviously poor prospective parents to have children, and I am beginning to think it is either because you cannot comprehend doing something different from society, or because you know you are being extremely selfish and are therefore trying to protect yourself from having to acknowledge it. > > Oh, and **Cat Whisperer** , good try. See how saying one little thing gets added to, twisted around and blown up if a select few (I’m looking at you **Meyer6** ) don’t agree? Wasn’t that fun? LOL - have we struck a sensitive little nerve here, tiger? People were honestly trying to answer your question in the other thread. Unfortunately for them, your brains have the consistency of cement and nothing can possibly get in. The thing is, you’re not ‘trying to understand the subject’, because you’re not listening to anything anyone else is saying. Or at least, you’re only listening to the small minority who agree with you. Which is classic \*\*curlcoat \*\*(as is the ‘who, little old me? I’m only trying to understand!’ gambit). Many of the rest of us (myself included) do not have children and don’t want them. So your theory that we defend them because we have them is stupid (although it’s amazing how often you trot it out). You definitely talked about forcing either abortion or adoption on pregnant women who don’t meet your exacting standards, so your objection to people addressing that is also stupid. And almost nobody (the exception being **Even Sven** ) said that ‘it’s a good thing for obviously poor prospective parents to have children’, they were trying to explain to you the apparently complex concept of mixed emotions and presenting a different face to the public than they do in private. So that’s strike three in the \*\*curlie \*\*stupidity game. Anything else you’d like to cry bitter tears about or stomp your little feet over? And **Cat Whisperer** just said that she changed her mind after some discussion, which is more than I can say you’ve done in the history of ever. Plus she didn’t scream like a whiny little bitch when people disagreed with her, which is also more than I can say for you. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-yet-again/622298/131 "2012-05-22T00:10:41Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > We should encourage people in bad idea pregnancy situations to do the right thing: not continue the pregnancy. We should provide them with free abortions and birth control and encourage them to to use these options. I would even me willing to kick in a few grand of my tax dollars as freebie mad money for anyone that chooses to have an abortion rather than bring a child into a bad situation. I have done it often enough before. And heaping scorn on idiots that continue bad idea pregnancies does DO something, it discourages others from following their example. Not all bad idea pregnancies are permanently bad. With support, parenting and guidance, teen parents can grow up and survive the bad part and end up being… parents. That’s a worthy goal, too. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-yet-again/622298/132 "2012-05-22T00:12:21Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Why do you think your opinion is important when you don’t even think killing babies after they are born is repugnant? Mostly because my opinion is right and will one day be hailed for the genius it is. Killing babies is no different than killing adults. Sometimes there is simply no other way. Repugnant are the people who would choose to give birth to an infant for whom death is quickly necessary.l ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-yet-again/622298/133 "2012-05-22T00:19:17Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Mostly because my opinion is right and will one day be hailed for the genius it is. Killing babies is no different than killing adults. Sometimes there is simply no other way. Repugnant are the people who would choose to give birth to an infant for whom death is quickly necessary.l What? How often is this the case? I wasn’t aware that in either of these threads we were discussing wartime life-or-death situations where such extreme measures are frequently necessary. Killing anyone may sometimes be a necessary evil, but it is never ‘genius’. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-yet-again/622298/134 "2012-05-22T00:20:00Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > Now on face-value, this is a post I could quite happily align myself with. I too feel that an abortion can be a positive decision (and FTR, have made that decision myself). And the practice of giving gifts is a thoughtful one too. > > But…and it’s a BIG but…the choice to continue or discontinue with a pregnancy must remain with the woman. > > In the **“World According to ZPG Zealot and curlcoat INC”** who’s going to be responsible for determining what type of women are going to be allowed to have babies? What sort of conditions are going to exclude women from these choices? You speak of low-ncome families, and women with addictions…what about excluding ugly women? They might be more likely to have ‘homely’ children who will in turn probably suffer socially and economically in the future and become burdensome upon the community. > > What about red-headed women who might birth red-headed children? We all know how rangas endure years of torment which leads them to develop personality disorders…should we exclude them too? While we’re about it, how about we force abortions on women whose IQ’s are under 100? We all know that those of lesser intelligence are a drain on society’s resources. > > See where this goes once you start playing the eugenics game? A civilization is judged by the values it places between the extremes. Our current civilization has removed many of the death controls that kept the population in check. Now we have to think in terms of birth control and since we all in this together it ceases to be a matter of just individual choice. Once again, it takes a village which means the village gets to have input on when and how. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-yet-again/622298/135 "2012-05-22T00:20:31Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Mostly because my opinion is right and will one day be hailed for the genius it is. Killing babies is no different than killing adults. Sometimes there is simply no other way. Repugnant are the people who would choose to give birth to an infant for whom death is quickly necessary.l And who, may I ask, gets to be the arbiter of who is worthy for life and who is not? ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-yet-again/622298/136 "2012-05-22T00:20:45Z")
Hey, I’m the product of a bad idea pregnancy, and I grew up to be an official Internet Snarky Bitch! Some of us really do end up making something out of ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-yet-again/622298/137 "2012-05-22T00:23:37Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > Hey, I’m the product of a bad idea pregnancy, and I grew up to be an official Internet Snarky Bitch! Some of us really do end up making something out of ourselves. Is this an argument for or against it…? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-yet-again/622298/138 "2012-05-22T00:24:52Z")
This is not a contest. You don’t have to out-crazy each other. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-yet-again/622298/139 "2012-05-22T00:26:46Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Mostly because my opinion is right and will one day be hailed for the genius it is. Killing babies is no different than killing adults. Sometimes there is simply no other way. Repugnant are the people who would choose to give birth to an infant for whom death is quickly necessary.l I see it rather often in families that are working poor where the birth of one more child is the stroke of bad luck which causes them to lose everything: jobs are lost, marriages crumble and end, older children end up in foster care and then usually on the streets, etc. I see it young men everyday in my neighborhood who could have gone to college or trade school or started businesses, but can’t because there is no money left over after paying child support. And after a few years I see it in the baby mommas when their kids are no longer cute and sweet which means they no longer get attention from various baby worshippers and the women realize they’ve been sold a bill of false goods and their lives are ruined. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-yet-again/622298/140 "2012-05-22T00:30:40Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > And who, may I ask, gets to be the arbiter of who is worthy for life and who is not? Do you also believe we should have no police forces, court system, government, or armed forces? All these entities we have created as a civilization to make such decisions as who is worthy for life and who is not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-yet-again/622298.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/curlcoat-yet-again/622298.md?page=8)