# Current immigration debate in the US - why no market solutions proposed from the right? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 14, 2014, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/current-immigration-debate-in-the-us-why-no-market-solutions-proposed-from-the-right/693073 "2014-07-14T14:11:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/current-immigration-debate-in-the-us-why-no-market-solutions-proposed-from-the-right/693073/81 "2014-07-19T18:09:54Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It didn’t have to. The 1965 act prohibits individuals who have previously entered illegally from subsequently obtaining citizenship (unless they were granted asylum or refugee status, I think). Simply not true. I refer you to [IRCA Legalization Effects: Lawful Permanent Residence and Naturalization through 2001](http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/publications/irca0114int.pdf) (pdf link) as archived on the Department of Homeland Security website. > [@Introduction of linked article](#): > > Two groups of immigrants were eligible for legalization under the Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA) of 1986. Aliens who had been unlawfully residing in the United States since before January 1, 1982 (pre-1982 immigrants) were legalized under Section 245A of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA). Aliens employed in seasonal agricultural work for a minimum of 90 days in the year prior to May, 1986 (SAWs) were legalized under Section 210A of the INA. Two groups. Amnesty recipients and Seasonal Agricultural Workers. By 2001, the report shows 1,775,996 people who overstayed visas or entered illegally applied for amnesty and 1,589,396 were approved. Of those approved, 630,547 were naturalized by 2001. See Exhibit 1 of the linked article. The 1986 Amnesty eventually led to naturalization. We’re fighting ignorance here. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/current-immigration-debate-in-the-us-why-no-market-solutions-proposed-from-the-right/693073/82 "2014-07-19T18:49:26Z")
It appears you are correct. Ignorance fought. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/current-immigration-debate-in-the-us-why-no-market-solutions-proposed-from-the-right/693073/83 "2014-07-19T19:21:29Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > [Raises hand] > I do! > > 🙂 No, you don’t, because you do not even know what the “R” and “D” labels will **mean** 20 years from now. Nobody does. They have changed their meanings many times before. Today’s GOP is not the GOP pre-1965 – it is not the GOP pre-1980 – it is not even the GOP pre-2009. > [@Debaser](#): > > Yes, because Ted Kennedy was a good liar: Nor do you know whether he was lying or mistaken. Certainly he was in no position to fool the Pubs in Congress – was he? ---
**Author:** ![Incubus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@Incubus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incubus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/current-immigration-debate-in-the-us-why-no-market-solutions-proposed-from-the-right/693073/84 "2014-07-20T23:56:46Z")
I was talking about this to my wife, whose parents were Mexican immigrants. I pointed out to here that based on many things culturally, Republicans should _love_ the idea of Mexican Immigrants coming here: -They are very self-reliant, generally shirking public assistance which is seen as shameful in their culture (you ask for help from your family, not the government) -They are much more likely to start up their own businesses rather than work for somebody else, even if it means selling oranges on some neighborhood corner. Similarly, they are more likely to try to sell something for a living than panhandle (refusing to resort to panhandling is a source of pride among some Latinos) -They are religious, and socially conservative, generally being anti-abortion. My wife pointed out that if Republicans really cared about many of these issues (abortion, small businesses, small government) they wouldn’t treat brown people like second-class citizens. She said cynically its fine to believe all this stuff _as long as you are white_. But if you are brown, speak a different language or believe in Jesus the ‘wrong’ way you might as well be a granola crunching communist hippie for all they care. I find it ironic. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/current-immigration-debate-in-the-us-why-no-market-solutions-proposed-from-the-right/693073/85 "2014-07-21T14:01:08Z")
> [@Incubus](#): > > . . . or believe in Jesus the ‘wrong’ way . . . I don’t think it can be that, not any more; there are a **lot** of Catholic Pubs nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/current-immigration-debate-in-the-us-why-no-market-solutions-proposed-from-the-right/693073/86 "2014-07-21T14:37:45Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I don’t think it can be that, not any more; there are a **lot** of Catholic Pubs nowadays. There are, however, enough Pat Buchanan Republican Catholics. In fact, I suspect that Pat “_If we do not get control of our borders, by 2050 Americans of European descent will be a minority in the nation their ancestors created and built._” Buchanan is representative of a significant number of conservative Catholics. He has backed off from his comments of 20 years ago complaining that the brown Mexican Catholics were not like “us,” but he just changed his language, not his beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/current-immigration-debate-in-the-us-why-no-market-solutions-proposed-from-the-right/693073/87 "2014-07-22T01:05:56Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > The current situation _is_ the market-based solution. Immigrants cross the border to take better-paying jobs than are available back home; employers hire illegal immigrants to save money on labor costs, and consumers get cheaper agricultural products and construction works. The entire process is driven by the market. > > If anybody were really serious about shutting down illegal immigration, they’d be proposing jail time not for the immigrants, but for the employers who hire them. Shifting the law enforcement focus from brown to white people doesn’t sell too well to the anti-immigration crowd. I think you started there with da esire to score cheap points with some ‘white people’ v ‘brown people’ tag line, they tried to work your way back to a logical or factual argument to set it up. But you failed. If you listen to virtually any pundit on talk radio who emphasizes the issues of illegal immigration, and their worked up audience, they call for harsh sanctions against employers who hire illegals, _constantly_. It’s often way over the top (10 yrs in prison, $10,000 fine per worker per day, etc). So the hypocrisy you describe doesn’t really exist, beyond politicians who pay lip service to seriously addressing the issue but actually don’t do anything, which is true of both Democrats as Republicans. Free market doesn’t mean chaos, as much as collectivists might honestly mistakenly think that, or realize it’s not true but still want to score rhetorical points by claiming so. A freer market might require fewer or less restrictive laws in particular cases. But a system where laws in effect are being broadly ignored is not ‘free market’. And the current situation with illegal immigrants in the US is not free market because we now have a welfare state. I don’t have any deep moral problem with people who come to the US illegally to do honest work (violating the law is not in itself a deep moral wrong). But the fact is they cost local and state governments particularly a lot more in services than they pay in taxes. That might even out to some degree based on Social Security tax many illegals pay under phoney SS no’s (meaning they wouldn’t get the benefits). It might even out even more considering the economic benefit they provide as cheap labor to those who employ them…but that doesn’t compensate local taxpayers. Again if some people (employers and perhaps some consumers) are benefiting to the detriment of others by breaking laws…not free market. The OP says ‘why don’t conservative or libertarians’ propose free market solutions, but conservatives are under no obligation to propose free market solutions for everything. There’s no inconsistency for a conservative to say a particular sphere, like having control of who enters the country, is not just a matter of markets. So called libertarians are the ones called out as hypocrites or fools on immigration. No, it’s not libertarian to limit immigration, and it’s not workable for any non fool of good will (some people do just want to destroy their own country, perverse true) to propose that _everybody_ who can reach the US in today’s world must be allowed in. That said, as conservative I would like to see more application of market principals in terms of, for example, increasing the emphasis on bringing capital or skills for the people who are allowed in legally, with less chain immigration of families and cutting out nonsense like worldwide lotteries. As for the illegal flow of low skilled/educated people from Latin America, it’s not beneficial to the US, nothing to do with ‘brown’ (any color whatsoever of skilled and educated people, or those who bring significant money to invest, is just fine). It should be limited as much as possible with more border security _and_ the kind of ID and verification and employer sanctions necessary to cut down the illegal flow substantially, without creating more corrosion of the rule of law (ie no ‘long prison sentences’ etc, but reasonable measures). And of course unaccompanied child migrants should be quickly, safely and humanely returned to their home countries immediately. Only that will stop their families paying to send them on the extremely dangerous journey. It’s inhumane not to send that message strongly and clearly. But reasonable conservatives IMO must accept that the illegal immigration problem can only be ameliorated, not eliminated. However a big problem is bad faith from the Democrats. They want illegal immigration as a club against Republicans. The GOP is far from blameless, but the Democrats have been quite cynical about it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/current-immigration-debate-in-the-us-why-no-market-solutions-proposed-from-the-right/693073/88 "2014-07-22T14:31:32Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > I don’t have any deep moral problem with people who come to the US illegally to do honest work (violating the law is not in itself a deep moral wrong). But the fact is they cost local and state governments particularly a lot more in services than they pay in taxes. [There are costs and there are benefits.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_impact_of_illegal_immigrants_in_the_United_States) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/current-immigration-debate-in-the-us-why-no-market-solutions-proposed-from-the-right/693073/89 "2014-07-22T14:32:50Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > However a big problem is bad faith from the Democrats. They want illegal immigration as a club against Republicans. The GOP is far from blameless, but the Democrats have been quite cynical about it. Heh-heh . . . Heh-heh . . Hah-hah-hah- **HAW-HAWWW!** Good one! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/current-immigration-debate-in-the-us-why-no-market-solutions-proposed-from-the-right/693073/90 "2014-07-23T12:53:07Z")
Since MA Gov. Deval Patrick has been mentioned here already, [this recent speech of his](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/07/21/1315639/-Mass-Governor-compares-immigrant-kids-to-Jews-turned-away-in-1939-offers-to-shelter-them)is apropos: > [@](#): > > We have rescued Irish children from famine, Russian and Ukrainian children from religious persecution, Cambodian children from genocide, Haitian children from earthquakes, Sudanese children from civil war, and New Orleans children from Hurricane Katrina. Once, in 1939, we turned our backs on Jewish children fleeing the Nazis, and it remains a blight on our national reputation. The point is that this good Nation is great when we open our doors and our hearts to needy children, and diminished when we don’t. **Debaser** , if you want to mistake me for him, I consider it an honor. Back to Lynn specifically. Not much gets people there riled up enough to organize rallies, but [Mayor Kennedy’s comments have](http://www.itemlive.com/news/lynn-rallies-for-immigrants/article_e20d1fce-120c-11e4-9c53-001a4bcf887a.html). > [@](#): > > With signs that read, “Keep the kids, deport the racists” and “Immigrants are part of Lynn’s past and present,” more than 150 people spread across City Hall steps Tuesday calling for unity among residents during a rally to support immigrants. > … > Weinstein pointed out that when her four grandparents immigrated to the U.S. nearly 100 years ago as children, their families heard the same accusations: they are a stress on the school system, they were too needy, it’s too expensive to provide services and there is a need to learn English faster. > … > While the Rev. Jane Gould called for residents to follow in Jesus’ footsteps by welcoming the children and caring for them, an onlooker on the fringe called out, “Send them to Lynnfield.” That’s a well-off adjacent town, ftr. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/current-immigration-debate-in-the-us-why-no-market-solutions-proposed-from-the-right/693073/91 "2014-07-23T22:03:25Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > In the short term, fraud. Many of them steal identities because they have to in order to work. It’s not unreasonable to think they can also be voting. Especially since we don’t even ask for an ID at the polls most of the time. > > But that’s small potatoes compared to the long term. Once they are given citizenship they will have the right to vote. First you get them here, then you give them amnesty and then they vote. > > Is there really any doubt in your mind that those 160 kids in Lynn that I posted about will be voting democratic in their lifetimes? Cite that illegals vote? Illegals tend to try and avoid government entities wherever possible. Yeah, in a decade, maybe. But if the Republican right stopped treating them like scum they might vote Republican. Look at the Cubans. Laws in some respect represent a failure of market forces. If we had high enough wages and good enough working conditions and real penalties for employers hiring illegals, they wouldn’t come. During the recession they left. As for military for profit, maybe “Hessians” rings a bell? ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/current-immigration-debate-in-the-us-why-no-market-solutions-proposed-from-the-right/693073/92 "2014-07-24T22:26:03Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Uh… Hi, european expat here. I’ve lived in Germany for 9 years or so now, nearly half my life. I lived in Mainburg, the town with the highest concentration of Turkish residents in Bavaria (at least, this is what the people there had told me, I have no official statistics), and now live in Munich, a massive, multicultural, international city. I can say with a fair bit of certainty that while there’s a little bit of culture shock and some rough edges (in particular the turkish “gangsta” culture), it is _not_ a “failure”. These people are assimilating. In fact, the only _problems_ are the _second_ generation - the first generation, the people who weren’t born here, have had almost no trouble whatsoever integrating into German society, and it’s not for nothing that you can find a kebab stand on every corner and a turkish market in every town. > > TL;DR: what lessons? I’m not seeing it. Lesson#1: Doner Kebabs rule. I am so jonesing for one right now. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/current-immigration-debate-in-the-us-why-no-market-solutions-proposed-from-the-right/693073/93 "2014-07-25T02:44:17Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [There are costs and there are benefits.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_impact_of_illegal_immigrants_in_the_United_States) Yes there are costs and benefits. But the problem is, and address this yourself if you disagree, rather than linky linky to generic Wikipedia, that the costs tend to flow to different people (legally in the US) than the benefits do. That’s true of a lot of economic phenomena, but it’s a basic problem when the activity in question is illegal. So back to my statement yours didn’t really address. It’s not deeply morally wrong just to break a law (separately from the morality of the act itself) but it’s not a ‘free market’, or a desirable or necessarily sustainable situation if some people are benefiting economically at the expense of others _by breaking laws_. And again this applies at least as much to people in the US as the illegal immigrants themselves. Nor IMO is there actually a broad hypocrisy about this. Most people very angry at illegal immigration are as angry at employers of illegals as at illegals themselves. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/current-immigration-debate-in-the-us-why-no-market-solutions-proposed-from-the-right/693073/94 "2014-07-25T15:52:48Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Excluded middle. > > It’s neither of those things. > > As I’ve already said, it’s because businesses like illegals. It’s cheap labor for them. Plus Democratic strategists love illegals, since it’s new voters for them. Except, of course, that illegal aliens don’t vote. I think they might be able to vote in some local elections, but those are hardly the politicians setting immigration policy. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/current-immigration-debate-in-the-us-why-no-market-solutions-proposed-from-the-right/693073/95 "2014-07-25T16:12:01Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > In fact, the only _problems_ are the _second_ generation . . . Why is that? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/current-immigration-debate-in-the-us-why-no-market-solutions-proposed-from-the-right/693073/96 "2014-07-25T16:18:44Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Plus Democratic strategists love illegals, since it’s new voters for them. No, it isn’t; only citizens can vote, and undocumented immigrants are not even on a path to citizenship. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/current-immigration-debate-in-the-us-why-no-market-solutions-proposed-from-the-right/693073.md?page=4)