# Cursing Dick Cheney - turnabout is fair play? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 12, 2005, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cursing-dick-cheney-turnabout-is-fair-play/321291 "2005-09-12T18:12:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cursing-dick-cheney-turnabout-is-fair-play/321291/1 "2005-09-12T18:12:04Z")
Dick Cheney was touring scenes of Hurricane Katrina’s devastation with Homeland Security Secretary Chertoff and Attorney General Gonzales. According to the AP on Sept. 9, a man whose house was destroyed in Gulfport, Miss. quoted Cheney’s June 2004 remark to Sen. Pat Leahy right back at the Vice President himself, shouting: “Go fuck yourself, Mr. Cheney!” As a Democrat, I chuckled. As an American, I thought it was disrespectful… but I really couldn’t bring myself to blame the guy. I might’ve said it, too. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cursing-dick-cheney-turnabout-is-fair-play/321291/2 "2005-09-12T18:35:32Z")
As a human being, I cut a good deal of slack to anybody whose house was just destroyed by a terrible natural disaster that devastated a large region. As a (hopefully) civilized human being, though, I can’t condone anybody’s obscenely insulting anybody else like that, especially not in public. It’s rude. As a citizen, I don’t see the point of yelling insults at Cheney because a hurricane destroyed your house. If you want to engage in rational, meaningful criticism of the Vice-President or his policies, you should write a letter to the editor or post on the Dope or something. If you just want to yell obscenities at the Veep because you hate him, you should do it in the privacy of your bedroom till the rage wears off. 'Course, this poor guy probably doesn’t have the privacy of a bedroom any more, which brings me back where I started. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cursing-dick-cheney-turnabout-is-fair-play/321291/3 "2005-09-12T18:47:31Z")
One difference between the two exchanges-- Cheney didn’t interrupy Lehey while he (Lehey) was being interviewed by a reporter. The guy this time tried to shout down Cheney and block him from speaking. Otherwise, it’s just par for the course. This happens to politicians all the time. They guy yelling almost always look like an asshole to the majority of people. **Kimstu** : Why do you assume this guy had his house destroyed? Was that reported in the news? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cursing-dick-cheney-turnabout-is-fair-play/321291/4 "2005-09-12T18:48:41Z")
Oops, I see that the OP said that the guy’s house was destroyed. Can we have a link? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cursing-dick-cheney-turnabout-is-fair-play/321291/5 "2005-09-12T18:53:18Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > One difference between the two exchanges-- Cheney didn’t interrupy Lehey while he (Lehey) was being interviewed by a reporter. The guy this time tried to shout down Cheney and block him from speaking. Nonsense. It was a drive-by cursing. I don’t see what was disrespectful, he said “Mister”. ---
**Author:** ![AFAIKnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cursing-dick-cheney-turnabout-is-fair-play/321291/6 "2005-09-12T18:53:28Z")
> [@William V.](#): > > I might’ve said it, too. I don’t se a debate bcause I don’t know why the guy said that. Maybe Cheney kicked his dog or something. However if you can tell me why you “might’ve said it, too”, then we can debate fair play. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cursing-dick-cheney-turnabout-is-fair-play/321291/7 "2005-09-12T18:56:37Z")
[Dr. Ben Marble, in his own words.](http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/9/9/153413/7797) > [@](#): > > As Marble explains, he was driving to his destroyed house Thursday in Gulfport, Ms., when military police refused to allow him to cross a barricade that was about 200 feet from his home. They forced him to drive an extra 20 minutes and spend even more on gasoline. > > “Thanks to Dubya Gump and Mr. Cheney, gas is really expensive and extremely hard to get anywhere Katrina has destroyed,” Marble wrote. “So needless to say, I was extremely aggravated that they wouldn’t let me pass.” > > …After driving the extra 20 minutes and filming video of destruction along the way, he made it to his home. Marble overheard a neighbor say that Cheney was down the street talking to people. That’s when he got the idea to go meet Dr. Evil himself. > > “I am no fan of Mr. Cheney because of several reasons,” Marble wrote. “For those who don’t know, Mr. Cheney is infamous for telling Senator [Pat] Leahy ‘go fu\*\* yourself’ on the Senate floor. Also, I am not happy about the fact that thousands have died due to the slow action of FEMA, not to even mention the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time, i.e. Iraq.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cursing-dick-cheney-turnabout-is-fair-play/321291/8 "2005-09-12T18:58:54Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > Nonsense. It was a drive-by cursing. What exactly did I say that was nonsense? You don’t think there’s a difference between saying “go fuck yourself” to someone as a parting comment and shouting it over an interview that is being conducted? If you don’t, then I say to you “go …”. Oops, I can only say that in the Pit. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![AFAIKnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cursing-dick-cheney-turnabout-is-fair-play/321291/9 "2005-09-12T19:24:10Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > [Dr. Ben Marble, in his own words.](http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/9/9/153413/7797) In that case, I don’t think it was fair play. I think it was just an egregious act that was premeditated to try to embarrass a partisan enemy only because the guy is having a bad day and had an opportunity to take it out on someone else and did. Cheney, on the other hand, made that remark to someone who publicly criticized his personal connections to a company. Not that I don’t think Cheney’s remark wasn’t egregious. I chuckled when I heard about that too. Not as a Republican, but as an \*average Joe. \*Damn, that term will never be used the same again, will it? Go fuck yourself, NBC. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cursing-dick-cheney-turnabout-is-fair-play/321291/10 "2005-09-12T19:30:27Z")
From **rjung** ’s link: > [@](#): > > “So we grabbed my Canon digital rebel and my Sony videocamera and started walking down the street,” Marble wrote. “And then right in front of the destroyed tennis court I used to play on Dick Cheney was giving a pep rally, talking to the press. The secret service guys patted us down and waved the wands over us, and then let us pass.” > > As he stood about 10 feet away from Cheney and his friend and some camera operators from CNN and other media filmed the scene, Marble suddenly yelled, “Go fuck yourself, Mr. Cheney! Go fuck yourself, you asshole!” […] > > “I had no intention of harming anyone but merely wanted to echo Mr. Cheney’s infamous words back at him,” Marble wrote. “At that moment, I noticed the Secret Service guys with a panic-stricken look on their faces, like they were about to tackle me, so I calmly walked away back to my former house.” > > His friend videotaped a little bit longer and then came back to Marble’s house. As they were salvaging a few things from Marble’s home, two military police waving M-16’s showed up and said they were looking for someone who fit Marble’s description who had cursed at Cheney. > > “I told them I was probably the person they were looking for, and so they put me in handcuffs and ‘detained’ me for about 20 minutes or so,” Marble wrote. “My right thumb went numb because the cuffs were on so tight, but they were fairly courteous and eventually released me after getting all my contact info. They said I had NOT broken any laws so I was free to go.” :eek: Okay, **now** we’ve got a debate. Is there any legitimate reason why **military police** should come looking for a guy who shouted obscenities for a couple of seconds during a press conference and then walked away, without doing or threatening any violent action? And if so, is there any reason to handcuff him while asking him about the incident, if he’s acting cooperatively and nonviolently? Especially if, by the MP’s own statement, he hadn’t broken any laws? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cursing-dick-cheney-turnabout-is-fair-play/321291/11 "2005-09-12T19:33:12Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > What exactly did I say that was nonsense? You don’t think there’s a difference between saying “go fuck yourself” to someone as a parting comment and shouting it over an interview that is being conducted? If you don’t, then I say to you “go …”. Oops, I can only say that in the Pit. 🙂 Had he stood there and repeatedly shouted it, I’d certainly agree with you. Had Cheney been giving a speech, I’d agree with you. Had he been doing anything other than spouting platitudes to a reporter, I _might_ agree with you. To me, this is a definite case of “no harm, no foul”. ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cursing-dick-cheney-turnabout-is-fair-play/321291/12 "2005-09-12T19:37:03Z")
> [@AFAIKnow](#): > > I think it was just an egregious act that was premeditated to try to embarrass a partisan enemy only because the guy is having a bad day and had an opportunity to take it out on someone else and did. Are we talking about Cheney or Marble at this point? ---
**Author:** ![AFAIKnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cursing-dick-cheney-turnabout-is-fair-play/321291/13 "2005-09-12T19:41:33Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > From **rjung** ’s link: > > :eek: > > Okay, **now** we’ve got a debate. Is there any legitimate reason why **military police** should come looking for a guy who shouted obscenities for a couple of seconds during a press conference and then walked away, without doing or threatening any violent action? And if so, is there any reason to handcuff him while asking him about the incident, if he’s acting cooperatively and nonviolently? Especially if, by the MP’s own statement, he hadn’t broken any laws? I am sure the Secret Service use the word “threatening” in a much more, dare I say, liberal way. You do know that if a cop wants to he can hold you, question you, and handcuff you while being questioned under no rules but his personal discretion. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cursing-dick-cheney-turnabout-is-fair-play/321291/14 "2005-09-12T19:47:15Z")
> [@AFAIKnow](#): > > I am sure the Secret Service use the word “threatening” in a much more, dare I say, liberal way. You do know that if a cop wants to he can hold you, question you, and handcuff you while being questioned under no rules but his personal discretion. Military police can do that to civilians? Civilian police can handcuff someone who is not under arrest? Dare I say cite? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cursing-dick-cheney-turnabout-is-fair-play/321291/15 "2005-09-12T19:52:09Z")
Yeah, but military police aren’t the Secret Service, are they? I can see how SS might get a little rough with a guy who was continuing to stand there and hassle the Veep, even if he wasn’t behaving violently. But I really don’t get the point of sending MPs to chase after him when he’s calmly walked away a couple hundred feet down the street. In fact, the only use of it that I can see is for purposes of intimidation, to get the point across that it’s frowned upon to yell at the VP in public. And I don’t like that notion. If you want to punish the guy for creating a disturbance or being a public nuisance or something legitimate like that, then report him to the cops and let them deal with it, just like anybody else would have to. I don’t fancy the idea of an Imperial Guard with M-16s leaning on hecklers who, by their own admission, haven’t broken any laws. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cursing-dick-cheney-turnabout-is-fair-play/321291/16 "2005-09-12T19:58:23Z")
> [@William V.](#): > > As a Democrat, I chuckled. As an American, I thought it was disrespectful… but I really couldn’t bring myself to blame the guy. I might’ve said it, too. America has a long and beautiful tradition of disrespecting its elected representatives. I’m glad to see that it’s alive and well. I’d probably feel the same way even if the comments were directed at a politician I didn’t loath on an almost entirely visceral level. 'Course, it’s not exactly easy to find that sort of a politician… ---
**Author:** ![St.Urho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e7dd6/32.png) [@St.Urho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/St.Urho)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cursing-dick-cheney-turnabout-is-fair-play/321291/17 "2005-09-12T20:41:36Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Military police can do that to civilians? Civilian police can handcuff someone who is not under arrest? Dare I say cite? I have no idea about military police, but civilian police can and do place people who are not under arrest in handcuffs. It’s frequently done to protect the officers, the person themselves, or bystanders. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cursing-dick-cheney-turnabout-is-fair-play/321291/18 "2005-09-12T20:56:06Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > Had he stood there and repeatedly shouted it, I’d certainly agree with you. Had Cheney been giving a speech, I’d agree with you. Had he been doing anything other than spouting platitudes to a reporter, I _might_ agree with you. To me, this is a definite case of “no harm, no foul”. I agree it’s “no harm, no foul”. The OP compared the two incidents, though, and I think the distinction I made is a real one. You called that distinction nonsense. You were wrong. ---
**Author:** ![AFAIKnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cursing-dick-cheney-turnabout-is-fair-play/321291/19 "2005-09-12T21:04:52Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Military police can do that to civilians? Military police have the same abilitis as the regular police if they are put into service to enforce law and order wich I assume is the case in Gulfport. > [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Civilian police can handcuff someone who is not under arrest? Dare I say cite? What, never watched COPS? 🆒 [http://www.acgov.org/da/pov/documents/Miranda\_Custody.htm](http://www.acgov.org/da/pov/documents/Miranda_Custody.htm) > [@](#): > > If, however, officers acted reasonably in handcuffing the suspect at some point before the interview but released him from any restraint during the interview, the handcuffing, although still a factor, will not automatically render the interview “custodial.”(34) > [@](#): > > 1. See People v. Taylor (1986) 178 Cal.App.3d 217, 230. NOTE: Although Taylor dealt with a situation where officers reasonably drew their weapons on a suspect but reholstered them before questioning the suspect, its rationale would clearly apply to the less coercive act of handcuffing the suspect. /slight hijack I have some school friends that became police officers. I was offended at such a suggestion myself so I did some research. Apparently your rights to deny the police investigative or custodial actions only begin once you are in front of a judge. You cannot stop a cop from searching your house, vehicle, or person. If you did you would probably get charged with hindering. You can refuse to give your permission but you had better step aside if the officer tells you to. A police officer can handcuff you to protect you or him/herself under his discretion. They can hold you for a “reasonable” amount of time while questioning you. They cannot hold you if you are not being questioned. Most of this I don’t have cites for but I can look it up if need be. I have asked several law professionals and it all boils down to: 1. Always be polite to an officer no matter what. If you get heated they most likely will get heated right back and they usually win in those circumstances. 2._Never_ waive your rights to an officer even if you are innocent. Assert them at any opportunity given. 2. Do not answer any questions without a lawyer other than the obligatory (id and such) unless you absolutely are sure it will help you and/or you are not being investigated. 3. Never try to stop an officer from doing anything unless you or someone else is in imminent danger. One summer when I worked nights I watched COPS almost every day. And I saw too many a dumbass get roughed up or get carted away just because they thought cooperation would get them leniency. I never want to be in that position so I learn what I can. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cursing-dick-cheney-turnabout-is-fair-play/321291/20 "2005-09-12T21:13:05Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > What exactly did I say that was nonsense? You don’t think there’s a difference between saying “go fuck yourself” to someone as a parting comment and shouting it over an interview that is being conducted? If you don’t, then I say to you “go …”. Oops, I can only say that in the Pit. 🙂 Even when that “parting comment” is being said while addressing a member of Congress? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cursing-dick-cheney-turnabout-is-fair-play/321291.md?page=2)