# Custer at Little Big Horn. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 26, 2003, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/custer-at-little-big-horn/177516 "2003-05-26T02:30:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/custer-at-little-big-horn/177516/21 "2003-05-26T13:14:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Reeder \* > \*\* > > Surely he realized it would be suicide, even if the Indians were under armed. As it turned out they were better armed than he was. \*\* Until very recently, throughout most of american history, civilians, even indians, were better armed than the common soldier. My own family commonly used and carried revolvers and repeating rifles decades before the common american army soldier routinely carried them, or was issued them. Any civilian could buy and carry any machine gun until 1934. Revolvers and repeating rifles were usually purchased by civilians and indians, not the US Army, until the 1900’s. Custer could have brought along Gattling guns and cannon, but he felt it would have slowed him down. He, unfortunately, did not have a choice in dediciding to have his men carry the repeating rifles Winchester 73’s or Henry 66’s, it was the armies choice. Indians, on the other hand, could, and did, buy repeating rifles. The indians did not have/choose to use Gattling guns, nor cannon, therefore bringing along Gattling guns would have made up a great difference in making up the shortcomings of the US Army being “underarmed” in any battle at that time. Custer was never ever known for being a “smart” man, he was lucky. Custer rose to fame and rank thru luck, not intelligence. His luck ran out in 1776. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/custer-at-little-big-horn/177516/22 "2003-05-26T13:16:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\*This is possible, but I do not recall reading of it. I wonder if this is a conflation of the story of Fetterman (who made Custer look like a genius). Once Fetterman had well and truly gotten his men into a fix from which they were clearly never going to escape, he and one of his officers (the doctor?) are reported to have each put their pistols to the other’s temple and counted down to fire at the same time–thereby reducing the number of soldiers who could continue the defense, hopeless as it was. \*\* I visited the Little Bighorn battlefield several years ago and bought a copy of **Save the Last Bullet for Yourself** by Thomas Marquette. It was so controversial that it wasn’t published until well after he had written it. At around the turn of the century the author was a doctor on the reservation near the battlefield and interviewed survivors and their descendants. He claims that it was suicide _en masse_ by the soldiers. Of course the title of the book came from an expression used by Army troops who feared being captured alive by the indians. It is a book well worth reading by anyone interested in the battle. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/custer-at-little-big-horn/177516/23 "2003-05-26T13:18:28Z")
er, I mean “1876” ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/custer-at-little-big-horn/177516/24 "2003-05-26T13:24:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Susanann \* > \*\* > > Custer was never ever known for being a “smart” man, he was lucky. Custer rose to fame and rank thru luck, not intelligence. His luck ran out in 1776. \*\*_underlining added by **Bosda DiChi of Tricor** _ No, it didn’t. 😛 Another factor was that several of Custer’s scouts were recent immigrants from Eastern Europe (so were most of my ancestors, for that matter) who either had great difficulty speaking/understanding English, or had an accent so thick it was difficult to understand them. Intel reports were garbled, & disaster followed. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/custer-at-little-big-horn/177516/25 "2003-05-26T13:41:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CBEscapee \* > \*\*I visited the Little Bighorn battlefield several years ago and bought a copy of **Save the Last Bullet for Yourself** by Thomas Marquette. . \*\* Sorry make that **Thomas Marquis**. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/custer-at-little-big-horn/177516/26 "2003-05-26T14:42:31Z")
> [@](#): > > So, was Custer insane? “Poison. From the goo-nads.” [sub]-- “Custer”, _Little Big Man_ [/sub] 😃 ---
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/custer-at-little-big-horn/177516/27 "2003-05-26T15:01:04Z")
IIRC, Harry Turney-High, an anthropologist and officer in the last active US horse cavalry unit (or something like that), in his book “Primitive War” remarked that Custer was so incompetent that he didn’t go to the Civil War victory parade because his horse ran the other way and he couldn’t control it. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/custer-at-little-big-horn/177516/28 "2003-05-26T15:06:21Z")
What was Custers “class ranking” at West Point? ---
**Author:** ![japatlgt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df705f/32.png) [@japatlgt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/japatlgt)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/custer-at-little-big-horn/177516/29 "2003-05-26T15:42:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Susanann \* > \*\*What was Custers “class ranking” at West Point? \*\* Dead last. [Cite](http://www.who2.com/bombedatwestpoint.html) ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/custer-at-little-big-horn/177516/30 "2003-05-26T15:58:29Z")
Custer did graduate last academically in his class. But Ambrose calls him “possibly the most popular cadet of the late 1850s” and “an outstanding horseback rider, considered to be one of the best ever to attend the Academy.” Both of these are crucial for cavalry officers to be. As for the victory parade: > [@](#): > > Custer’s horse carried him at a full gallop down the parade route, lined with thousands of spectators. At the presidential reviewing stand, Custer tried to give a saber salute but lost the sword and his hat, too. Then, displaying marvelous horsemanship, he brought his frantic beast under control, right in front of the President. Cheers went up. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/custer-at-little-big-horn/177516/31 "2003-05-26T18:48:10Z")
As I understand it, many of Custer’s brilliant victories were foolhardy, and a toss of the dice would have killed him off or would have had him fired him early in his carreer. Again, it was “luck” that served him until 1876, he was probably the luckiest man in the army until then. g Dont get me wrong, in a way, I liked Custer, he did have a flash/attraction about him, but I also disliked him. I understand that for all of his rebelliousness, he did not tolerate it in his men. If any of his men did the same things he did, he would have punished them. That is a hypocrite. ---
**Author:** ![raygirvan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac91a4/32.png) [@raygirvan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raygirvan)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/custer-at-little-big-horn/177516/32 "2003-05-26T19:33:23Z")
As to the possibility of Custer being deranged, [CPC-2000](http://www.va-umd.org/pages/custer.htm) diagnosed him as having histrionic personality disorder. The page has some interesting biographical background about previous foolhardy and/or irresponsible actions. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/custer-at-little-big-horn/177516/33 "2003-05-26T19:34:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bosda Di’Chi of Tricor \* > \*\*… > Another factor was that several of Custer’s scouts were recent immigrants from Eastern Europe (so were most of my ancestors, for that matter) who either had great difficulty speaking/understanding English, or had an accent so thick it was difficult to understand them. Intel reports were garbled, & disaster followed. \*\* Where on earth did that come from?! Custer’s scouts were recent immigrants from Eastern Europe who could not speak English? What? Custer’s scouts were for the most part Crow and Arikira warriors who had enlisted for the summer to campaign against their hereditary enemies. The few Americans with the scouting detachment were experienced plainsmen and familiar with the northern plains tribes and the territory. A fair number of the troopers may have been immigrants without a full grasp of English. John Martin, whose given name was Giovani Martini, was the orderly trumpeter on the day of the fight and carried Custer’s last message. He was an Italian immigrant and was described by Captain Benteen as being about as qualified to be a king as to be a cavalryman. This was not a complement. Several of the officers had been European adventurers. One company commander had served in the Papal army and another was implicated in an attempt assignation of Napoleon III. The officers all spoke English. As far as weapons are concerned, Custer’s men were armed with the 1873 Springfield trapdoor breech loading single shot carbine and with the 1872 Colt cal. .45 revolver. The side arm was state of the art. The carbine was chosen over repeating arms (for instance the Henry Rifle and the Spencer) because of its ruggedness, accuracy and, most importantly, its hitting power. The weapon had a knock down punch at 1000 yards and its effective range far exceeded the Henry-Winchester type repeating rifle. At a longer range the Springfield was a formidable weapon. It did not, however have the ability to put out the quality of fire at closer range that the lever action repeater had. The Army simply chose accuracy, reliability and hitting power over volume of fire. Custer was not so much a fool as he was impetuous and bold to the point of recklessness. His successes in the Civil War were the result of hell for leather, follow me, boys, headlong action. Most of the time it worked. In June, 1876, it didn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/custer-at-little-big-horn/177516/34 "2003-05-26T21:12:53Z")
The confusion may be because Custer told Martini to take an important message to to Captain Benteen. “Ride as fast as you can and tell him to hurry. Tell him it’s a big village and I want him to be quick, and to bring the ammunition packs.” This was turned into a scrawled written order by Adjutant Cooke: “Benteen: Come on. Big village. Be quick. Bring packs. P. S. Bring packs.” So even if Martini could not have transmitted the order orally, the message would have gotten the gist across. In any case, Benteen couldn’t possibly have gotten there in time, although there is some evidence that he didn’t move quick. ---
**Author:** ![jimmmy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@jimmmy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimmmy)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/custer-at-little-big-horn/177516/35 "2003-05-26T21:39:11Z")
This site has an account by a civilian contract scout, with Benteen, at the Battle [http://www.ibiscom.com/custer.htm](http://www.ibiscom.com/custer.htm) He calls Benteen brilliant & brave, however, I don’t think that he was seen that way by his contemps. Folks with more knowledge than I can answer that. The idea that Custer slowed and stayed on the eastern side of the River after Reno’s collapse makes sense if a reunification with Benteen was expected… right? Does anyone still blame Benteen at all for what happened or is history’s judgement that he acted completely appropriately? ---
**Author:** ![ltfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@ltfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ltfire)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/custer-at-little-big-horn/177516/36 "2003-05-27T00:14:39Z")
OK, gimme an Indian war drum beat and lets all sing along… \_\_\_\_ Fred Darian/ Al DeLory/ Joe Van Winkle, “Mr. Custer” Mr. Custer Fred Darian/ Al DeLory/ Joe Van Winkle (That famous day in history the men of the 7th Cavalry went riding on) (And from the rear a voice was heard) (A brave you man with a trembling word rang loud and clear) What am I doin’ here?? Please Mr. Custer, I don’t wanna go Hey, Mr. Custer, please don’t make me go I had a dream last night about the comin’ fight Somebody yelled “attack!” And there I stood with a arrow in my back. Please Mr. Custer, I don’t wanna go (forward Ho!!)–aaww SPOKEN: Look at them bushes out there They’re moving and there’s a injun behind every one Hey, Mr. Custer—you mind if I be excused the rest of the afternoon? HEY CHARLIE, DUCK YER HEAD!! Hmm, you’re a little bit late on that one, Charlie Hooh, I bet that smarts! (They were sure of victory, the men of the 7th Cavalry, as they rode on) (But then from the rear a voice was heard) (That same brave voice with the trembling word rang loud and clear) What am I doin’ here?? Please Mr. Custer, I don’t wanna go Listen, Mr. Custer, please don’t make me go There’s a redskin a’waitin’ out there, just fixin to take my hair A coward I’ve been called cuz I don’t wanna wind up dead or bald Please Mr. Custer, I don’t wanna go (forward HO)–aaww SPOKEN: I wonder what the injun word for friend is Let’s see—friend-- kemo sabe, that’s it KEMO SABE!, HEY OUT THERE—KEMO SABE! Nope, that itn’t it Look at them durnb injuns They’re runnin’ around like a bunch of wild Indians-heh, heh, heh Nah, this ain’t no time for jokin’ (sound of arrows whizzing by) * * * ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/custer-at-little-big-horn/177516/37 "2003-05-27T00:37:49Z")
One of the problems of the colonial wars was logistics vs mobility. The Whites had all that great equipment, but hauling it to where it could be used against the natives was often impossible. The solution to this was the flying column. Everything that couldn’t be broken down an loaded onto mules was left behind. Then, to prevent the natives from scattering, the expedition would split up with plans to reconverge for the attack. Although this violated traditional wisdom against dividing your force in the face of the enemy, it worked more often than not, a pretty good feat despite the communication technology of the time. Crook used it against the Apache, the French in Madagascar, the Germans in Southwest Africa, to name a few. Custer didn’t have what it took for a commander to pull this off. He didn’t use his intelligence reports thoroughly, didn’t manage hhis subordinates, etc. But he was hardly the only commander of the era who failed at this. Chelsmford in South Africa, Hicks in the Sudan, and the Italian general whose name I’d have to look up at Adowa all ran the same game plan in a half-assed way and got smeared. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/custer-at-little-big-horn/177516/38 "2003-05-27T05:26:30Z")
[hijack] I don’t know what was going on there in the Civil War, but there seems to have been an unusual acceptance of the West Point last-placers. Another ill-fated last-in-his-classer was [George Pickett]([www.ifyougolf.com/playingaround/](http://www.ifyougolf.com/playingaround/) golfjokes/). I think there were others as well. [/hijack] Custer can be accused of many things, but I think he can also be credited for being one of the first to observe an unusual eddy in the progress of military history. By 1861, mounted cavalry was already being written off as a viable battlefield force of arms, and was relegated largely to raiding and reconaissance. But in the Civil War, both sides almost always used a line of bayoneted muskets as their primary combat formation. This formation was highly vulnerable to charges by sabre carrying cavalry. Custer was one of the first to regularly use this nearly archaic tactic. In its own small way, that observation is comparable to (and opposite of) Gustavus Adolfus or Gonzalo de Cordoba increasing the ratio of pikemen to arquebusiers to exploit a temporary liability in military technology. However, the fact that he stuck to the idea of the aggressive cavalry advance despite the very different tactical scenario at Greasy Grass is definitely not to his credit. It may also be supporting evidence for the idea that Custer tumbled to that somewhat brilliant idea for the wrong reasons. Here’s the important thing: foolhardiness only sticks when one fails. When it succeeds, it’s called “audacity.” Guys like Otto Skorzeny made their reputations performing near-suicidal exploits and getting away with it. So too had Custer prior to his sudden demise. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/custer-at-little-big-horn/177516/39 "2003-05-27T12:20:26Z")
The trapdoor Springfield wasn’t chosen for accuracy or hitting power. Initioally, it was in use because the trapdoor mechanism was a relatively cheap and easy way to convert the countless muzzle loading rifles left over from the Civil War to breechloaders. It then remained in service for far too long because of bureaucratic inertia. Other nations used similar stopgap conversions during the transition to cartridge-bearing rifles, I can’t think of any other major nation that clung to theirs the way the US did, though. [http://www.spanamwar.com/trapdoor.htm](http://www.spanamwar.com/trapdoor.htm) for info. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/custer-at-little-big-horn/177516/40 "2003-05-27T13:49:42Z")
Sofa King – what makes you say that “a line of bayoneted muskets” [referring to U.S. civil war -era rifled muskets] was vulnerable to a saber calvary charge? Perhaps under certain unusual circumstances, which Custer may have found himself in (and I know nothing of his Civil War career), but as a general thing, calvary was relegated to scouting because it didn’t work against a line of rifled muskets, no? (not that the Sioux et al were using those tactics) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/custer-at-little-big-horn/177516.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/custer-at-little-big-horn/177516.md?page=3)