# Cutting off aid to Egypt is the law **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2013, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cutting-off-aid-to-egypt-is-the-law/662825 "2013-07-06T23:52:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cutting-off-aid-to-egypt-is-the-law/662825/61 "2013-07-11T19:12:15Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > - Despite the unrest, American officials indicated on Wednesday that they plan to move ahead with the delivery of four new F-16 fighter jets to Egypt as part of the United States’ annual military assistance.\* Blows out of the water the “we don’t have to decide until next year” argument. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cutting-off-aid-to-egypt-is-the-law/662825/62 "2013-07-11T20:48:35Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > When you try to say that it wasn’t a “decree” because Morsi was “requested” to step down, there really isn’t much to talk about, is it? I think the point is that it’s not so much the language of the law here, but the spirit of the law that’s in question. Clearly the law was written to head off funding tin-pot dictators of 3rd world countries who got their jobs in military coups that wrecked formerly democratic governments and institutions. In this case, it’s not so clear-cut. The Egyptian military clearly moved Morsi out, but not with the intent of taking power for itself; they’ve appointed an interim president, with the intent of having new elections in the near future. That’s a very different situation than some 2-bit general taking power and declaring himself Presidente-for-Life. And anyway, it doesn’t matter since the aid’s been paid for this year, and by the time it would be time to pay next year, they’re expected to have had free elections. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cutting-off-aid-to-egypt-is-the-law/662825/63 "2013-07-11T20:51:03Z")
> [@bump](#): > > And anyway, it doesn’t matter since the aid’s been paid for this year, and by the time it would be time to pay next year, they’re expected to have had free elections. See: “Despite the unrest, American officials indicated on Wednesday that they plan to move ahead with the delivery of four new F-16 fighter jets to Egypt as part of the United States’ annual military assistance.” ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cutting-off-aid-to-egypt-is-the-law/662825/64 "2013-07-11T21:02:08Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > See: “Despite the unrest, American officials indicated on Wednesday that they plan to move ahead with the delivery of four new F-16 fighter jets to Egypt as part of the United States’ annual military assistance.” Which is proof that it’s not a military coup. The law swings both ways on this. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cutting-off-aid-to-egypt-is-the-law/662825/65 "2013-07-11T21:05:40Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Which is proof that it’s not a military coup. The law swings both ways on this. 1. The law does not only require stopping of aid in the case of a military coup. It also requires it if the duly elected head of government is removed by decree in which the military plays a significant role. There is no way to argue otherwise except the stupid sophistry of “what is decree? what is military? what is plays? what is role? what is significant?”. 2. Saying that Obama ignoring the law and sending the planes to Egypt is proof that the law doesn’t apply is absurd. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cutting-off-aid-to-egypt-is-the-law/662825/66 "2013-07-11T21:09:21Z")
The determination has to be made by some person or group of persons that there was not a military coup. Who determines that? If the government goes ahead with delivering the planes that is evidence that the government has determined there was no military coup. Until you have some congressional action stating that Obama has violated the law, then there’s been no violation. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cutting-off-aid-to-egypt-is-the-law/662825/67 "2013-07-11T21:55:48Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I’ll go with what an Egyptian thinks about it: > > Read More: > > [Egypt: A People’s Revolution, Not a Crisis or Coup (Nawal El Saadawi)](http://www.juancole.com/2013/07/peoples-revolution-saadawi.html) That would be interesting if the statute said that an Egyptian gets to decide if it was a coup or not. Besides, I’m shocked, SHOCKED that an Egyptian doesn’t want us to cut off aid to his country. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cutting-off-aid-to-egypt-is-the-law/662825/68 "2013-07-11T23:55:49Z")
Terr, why do you hate nuance? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cutting-off-aid-to-egypt-is-the-law/662825/69 "2013-07-12T00:38:31Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > See: “Despite the unrest, American officials indicated on Wednesday that they plan to move ahead with the delivery of four new F-16 fighter jets to Egypt as part of the United States’ annual military assistance.” Yeah, but the money’s been allocated and spent, which is what usually counts in Congress and laws like this. Delivering the planes is just the final stage. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cutting-off-aid-to-egypt-is-the-law/662825/70 "2013-07-12T00:56:07Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Yeah, but the money’s been allocated and spent, which is what usually counts in Congress and laws like this. Delivering the planes is just the final stage. If aid is stopped, delivery of planes would be stopped. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cutting-off-aid-to-egypt-is-the-law/662825/71 "2013-07-12T01:30:51Z")
Expecting Congress or Obama to give a tinker’s damn about breaking the law is a little naive given the past 5 to 13 years, is it not? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cutting-off-aid-to-egypt-is-the-law/662825/72 "2013-07-12T01:58:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That would be interesting if the statute said that an Egyptian gets to decide if it was a coup or not. Besides, I’m shocked, SHOCKED that an Egyptian doesn’t want us to cut off aid to his country. I have no problem with an Egyptian saying it was not a coup. After all Egypt belongs to Egyptians. It can be called a revolt if they wish. I expect that Egyptians, having seen one year of the Muslim Brotherhood showcasing their version of running or governing a democratically elected regime, tens of millions voted again against them with their feet. Was this an early revolt to ‘save’ the young sapling of liberty for the Egyptian people? Who was it that said, " The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. " The Egyptians figured out that theirs needed refreshing quite early in the process. I have read some interesting commentary in the European Press and one of them was about Mubarak’s former secrete police. They were a hundred thousand strong. They were mentioned with the need to take a look at how the alliances have been shifting since Mubarak was ousted. One writer observed that it looks like the former Mubarak Secret Service members seem to be allied and protecting the Secularists of seventeen million who took to the streets calling for Morsi to resign. So this go around there is an alliance against the theocratic Muslim Brotherhood made up of the secularists/ protestors/ rebels plus the perhaps 100,000 former Mubarak Secret Police and the Egyptian military. Think about it. Secularists have the toughest and most weapon laden groups on their side now. There may not be a civil war … and perhaps that is why the Muslim Brotherhood may have calmed down and figured out just what they are up against… and are now saying stuff like this: > [@](#): > > “We will continue our peaceful resistance to the bloody military coup against constitutional legitimacy,” the Brotherhood said. “We trust that the peaceful and popular will of the people shall triumph over force and oppression.” > A senior Brotherhood leader, Essam el-Erian, echoed the sentiment in comments published on the website of the Brotherhood’s political arm, the Freedom and Justice party. > “The people will restore their freedom and dignity through peaceful sit-ins in square, demonstrations and protests,” he was quoted as saying. “All Egyptians must stop dragging the country to violence and avoid falling into the vicious circle of violent and counter-violence.” [http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202\_162-57593288/egypts-muslim-brotherhood-vows-peaceful-defiance/](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57593288/egypts-muslim-brotherhood-vows-peaceful-defiance/) And the writing about the Secret Police comes from this excerpt and link: [http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/colinfreeman/100225749/revolution-in-egypt-are-cairos-secret-police-on-the-right-side-for-once/](http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/colinfreeman/100225749/revolution-in-egypt-are-cairos-secret-police-on-the-right-side-for-once/) > [@](#): > > For once, this is a conspiracy theory that appears to have some credence. The Amn al-Dawla, or State Security Investigations Service, was a hated organization during Mubarak’s time, a sign that Egypt, despite its tourist friendly image, was a police state in much the same mold as Syria or Iraq. > > Its 100,000 staff monitored every walk of Egyptian life, even organizations such as hospitals and universities, and to get on the wrong side of them politically was to have one’s card marked for life (or, in some cases, death). > > It was no surprise, therefore, when after Mr Mubarak’s fall in 2011, its headquarters were ransacked by crowds of angry demonstrators. Back then, anyone who even looked vaguely like a state-security man – burly, middle-aged, bad dress sense – could get surrounded by a mob and beaten up. > > But while state security lost its stranglehold of terror that time, and has been in something of a directionless flux ever since, no organization with 100,000 people in it just disappears completely. And crucially, its leaders did not form a warm relationship with the Egypt’s new Muslim Brotherhood masters when they swept to power in last year’s elections. > > From the Brotherhood’s point of view, state security had beaten up and tortured far too many Brotherhood followers to ever be trusted to any real degree. And from state security’s point of view, far too many Brotherhood types had pasts as violent militants, who had no business being anywhere near the reins of power. > > Hence the sight of plain clothes men mingling in recent weeks with the crowds of anti-government protesters, this time with a view to protecting them rather than singling out people to cart away for questioning. So is there a genuine change of heart, or is it just a good instinct for self-preservation? I still like the odds for the secularists - the military - and the 100,000 strong former Mubarak tough guys - and many forward looking religious conservatives coming together to hold the Muslim Brotherhood’s itch for Iranian style Theocracy in check. I’d call what happened to Morsi was a smack down or to paraphrase Jefferson.. it was a good bit of ‘refreshing the tree of liberty’ when it had to. Call it a coup D’état if you like. It doesn’t matter within a deeper perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cutting-off-aid-to-egypt-is-the-law/662825/73 "2013-07-12T03:01:17Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I’ll go with what an Egyptian thinks about it: > > Read More: > > [Egypt: A People’s Revolution, Not a Crisis or Coup (Nawal El Saadawi)](http://www.juancole.com/2013/07/peoples-revolution-saadawi.html) You think this woman is representative of Egypt?:dubious: If even 4% of all Egyptians know who she is I’ll be shocked. Hanan Ashrawi is probably more representative of the Palestinians. Also, Juan Cole is the guy who claimed that the US defense department was controlled by Jews who wanted to use the US military as “Israel’s Gurka regiment” so that Israel’s goals could be accomplished while only gentile blood would be shed. Wouldn’t you agree that’s a fairly anti-Semitic belief that would cast doubt on the person’s judgment and analysis? Or do you think there’s nothing questionable about such beliefs? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cutting-off-aid-to-egypt-is-the-law/662825/74 "2013-07-12T03:26:17Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You think this woman is representative of Egypt?:dubious: > > If even 4% of all Egyptians know who she is I’ll be shocked. > > Hanan Ashrawi is probably more representative of the Palestinians. > > Also, Juan Cole is the guy who claimed that the US defense department was controlled by Jews who wanted to use the US military as “Israel’s Gurka regiment” so that Israel’s goals could be accomplished while only gentile blood would be shed. > > Wouldn’t you agree that’s a fairly anti-Semitic belief that would cast doubt on the person’s judgment and analysis? > > Or do you think there’s nothing questionable about such beliefs? Who are you talking about? It’s Nawal El Saadawi not Hanan Ashrawi. > [@](#): > > El Saadawi already seems to have lived more lives than most. She trained as a doctor, then worked as a psychiatrist and university lecturer, and has published almost 50 novels, plays and collections of short stories. Her work, which tackles the problems women face in Egypt and across the world, has always attracted outrage, but she never seems to have balked at this; she has continued to address controversial issues such as prostitution, domestic violence and religious fundamentalism in her writing. > > This has come at considerable cost. In 1972, her non-fiction book Women and Sex (which included criticism of female genital mutilation) led to her losing her job as director general of public health for the Egyptian ministry of health. In 1981, her outspoken political views led to her being charged with crimes against the state and jailed for three months – she used the time to write Memoirs From The Women’s Prison on a roll of toilet paper, with an eyebrow pencil smuggled in by a fellow prisoner. In 1993 she fled to the US after death threats were issued against her by religious groups. > > Her work continues to be explosive. Her play, God Resigns in the Summit Meeting – in which God is questioned by Jewish, Muslim and Christian prophets and finally quits – proved so controversial that, she says, her Arabic publishers destroyed it under police duress. And recently her criticism of religion, primarily on the basis that it oppresses women, has prompted a flurry of court cases, including unsuccessful legal attempts both to strip her of her nationality and to forcibly dissolve her marriage. > > As El Saadawi prepares to talk about her life at a PEN literary festival on Friday, she is unrepentant. “It’s all worth it,” she assures me. “If I went back I would do it all again. That is what I have learned from my experiences, that I was on the right track.” Her energy, she insists, comes from the 10 to 15 letters she receives every day from people who say their lives have been changed by her writing. “A young man came to me in Cairo with his new bride. He said, I want to introduce my wife to you and thank you. Your books have made me a better man. Because of them I wanted to marry not a slave, but a free woman.” > > El Saadawi is “a novelist first, a novelist second, a novelist third”, she says, but it is feminism that unites her work. “For me feminism includes everything,” she says. “It is social justice, political justice, sexual justice . . . It is the link between medicine, literature, politics, economics, psychology and history. Feminism is all that. You cannot understand the oppression of women without this.” I’d suspect she’s pretty well known in Egypt. If I could find some stats.. I work with Several Egyptians and another outside of work who is a very good friend . I’ll ask. Would four of four suffice? Although I do not follow the professor that closely, Juan Cole usually does well to defend charges of anti-Semitism against him - If you wish to start that debate.. how about starting another thread. Now can we get off personal attacks and look at the content of what Nawal El Saadawi has to say. I like what she says. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cutting-off-aid-to-egypt-is-the-law/662825/75 "2013-07-12T04:11:44Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Also, Juan Cole is the guy who claimed that the US defense department was controlled by Jews who wanted to use the US military as “Israel’s Gurka regiment” That is not what he wrote. > **[Lawrence Franklin espionage scandal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Franklin_espionage_scandal)** > > The Lawrence Franklin espionage scandal involved Lawrence Franklin, a former United States Department of Defense employee, passing classified documents regarding United States policy towards Iran to Israel. Franklin pleaded guilty to several espionage-related charges and was sentenced in January 2006 to nearly 13 years of prison, which was later reduced to ten months' house arrest. Franklin passed information to American Israel Public Affairs Committee policy director Steven Rosen and AIPAC senio... > [@](#): > > Wkipedia On August 27, 2004, CBS News broke a story about a Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) investigation into a possible spy in the U.S. Department of Defense working for Israel. The story reported that the FBI had uncovered a spy working as a policy analyst under Under Secretary of Defense for Policy Douglas Feith and then-Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz. He was later identified as Lawrence Franklin, who had previously served as an attaché at the U.S. embassy in Israel and was one of two mid-level Pentagon officials in the Office of the Secretary of Defense responsible for Iran policy in the office’s Northern Gulf directorate.[4][5][6] > > Franklin has pled guilty to passing on a classified presidential directive, and other sensitive documents pertaining to U.S. deliberations on foreign policy regarding Iran to AIPAC, who in turn provided the information to Israel. FBI sources have indicated that the year-long investigation was actively underway when the CBS News story broke. > > According to FBI surveillance tapes, Franklin relayed top-secret information to Rosen and Keith Weissman, a senior Iran analyst with AIPAC, while at the Tivoli Restaurant in Arlington, Virginia. On 27 August, the FBI raided Rosen’s office, copying his personal computer’s hard drive.[7]broken link > > According to The New York Times, Lawrence Franklin was one of two U.S. officials who held meetings with Iranian dissidents, including Paris-based arms dealer Manucher Ghorbanifar, a key figure in the Iran-Contra affair. These Pentagon-approved meetings were brokered by neoconservative Michael Ledeen of the American Enterprise Institute, who had also played a part in Iran-Contra, and is said to have taken place in Paris in June 2003. The Jerusalem Post reported that the purpose of the meetings was to “undermine a pending deal that the White House had been negotiating with the Iranian government”, specifically, an exchange of high-ranking al-Qaeda members in Iranian custody in return for a stop to U.S. support of the anti-Iranian Mujahideen al-Khalq fighters in Iraq.[8]broken link The Post article dated the beginning of the FBI investigation to this secret meeting, which the public first learned about in August 2003. > > Franklin had previously been assigned to a unit tasked with the Pentagon’s Iraq policy, raising concern that he might have been used to influence the war on Iraq, although Pentagon officials have maintained that he was in no position to influence policy. (see also Office of Special Plans) > > On August 30, 2004, Israeli officials admitted that Franklin had met repeatedly with Naor Gilon, head of the political department at the Israeli Embassy in Washington and a specialist on Iran’s nuclear programs, but point out that this was completely appropriate activity for the two Iran specialists. A Newsweek report indicates that Gilon was under FBI surveillance and that Franklin only became a target after these meetings.[9]broken link > > It has been suggested that Franklin’s motivations may have been ideological or personal, rather than financial. An unnamed U.S. intelligence official told Newsweek: “for whatever reason, the guy hates Iran [the Iranian government] passionately.” > > Franklin’s security clearance was revoked, although he was not fired, merely demoted. The FBI investigation continued until May 5 when he was arrested and charged with giving away top-secret information.[6] > > The indictment revealed that the investigation had been going on since 1999, and suggested that other individuals at AIPAC, the Defense Department and the Israeli embassy had been involved as well. The indictment also alleged that Kenneth Pollack, a National Security Council staffer during the Clinton administration (and director of research at the Brookings Institution’s Saban Center for Middle East Policy) provided information to former AIPAC employees Steve J. Rosen and Keith Weissman.[10] Cole referred to a ‘pro-Likud faction’ in the Department of Defense. That is not what you wrote, “the US defense department was controlled by Jews”. Although I have no respect of fondness for the players named in that Lawrence Franklin case, I am not taking sides on this issue one way or the other. But please stick with what was said. Cole never said the US defense department was controlled by Jews. > [@](#): > > Here is my take on the Lawrence Franklin espionage scandal in the Pentagon. > > It is an echo of the one-two punch secretly planned by the pro-Likud faction in the Department of Defense. First, Iraq would be taken out by the United States, and then Iran. David Wurmser, a key member of the group, also wanted Syria included. These pro-Likud intellectuals concluded that 9/11 would give them carte blanche to use the Pentagon as Israel’s Gurkha regiment, fighting elective wars on behalf of Tel Aviv (not wars that really needed to be fought, but wars that the Likud coalition thought it would be nice to see fought so as to increase Israel’s ability to annex land and act aggressively, especially if someone else’s boys did the dying). > **[Pentagonisrael Spying Case Expands](https://www.juancole.com/2004/08/pentagonisrael-spying-case-expands.html)** > > Pentagon/Israel Spying Case Expands: Fomenting a War on Iran Here is my take on the Lawrence Franklin espionage scandal in the Pentagon. It is an echo of the one-two punch secretly planned by the pro-Likud faction in the Department of Defense. First,... I have nothing good to say about Paul Wolfowitz for instance for his role in getting the US mired in the war in Iraq. I could care less what his religion is. I despise the man for what he did. There is not an anti-Semitic bone in my body. But it is quite sad when you can’t criticize someone like Wolfowitz, Perle and Feith and all the rest involved in the Pentagon with the ‘Special Plans’ for Iraq group without that crap getting throw at you. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cutting-off-aid-to-egypt-is-the-law/662825/76 "2013-07-12T04:46:55Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Who are you talking about? It’s Nawal El Saadawi not Hanan Ashrawi. Your reading comprehension skills leave much to be desired. I said of “El Saadawi” that “Hannan Ashrawi is probably more representative of the Palestinians”. The obvious point being that El Saadawi was even less representative of the Egyptians than Ashrawi was of the Palestinians. El Saadawi is an academic who I suspect few Egyptians have heard of. In fact, probably far more Americans have heard of Susan Faludi than Egyptians have heard of El Saadawi. I have to admit the mistake you made was almost as hysterical as the time you pompously proclaimed how much you knew about the Vietnam War and then revealed that you thought the US was fighting against the South Vietnamese Army. > [@](#): > > That is not what he wrote. Yes it is unless you want to be absurdly pedantic. He claimed that the US went to War in Iraq because the US defense department was controlled by a “pro-Likud intellectuals” of which members he identified in various articles only Jews. Specifically David Wurmser, Douglas Feith, and Paul Wolfowitz. He specifically said they wanted to uses the US military as “Israel’s Gurka regiment fighting wars on behalf of Tel Aviv”. Moreover, Cole specifically accused these Jewish intellectuals of believing that such war on behalf of the Jewish state “so as to increase Israel’s ability to annex land and act aggressively, especially if **someone else’s boys [/B**]did the dying\*\*”. So, to sum it up, according to Cole, the US went to War in Iraq because a bunch a American Jewish intellectuals viewed American gentile soldiers as “someone else’s boys”, whom they intended to sacrifice to the benefit of Israel and preferred to see American/gentile soldiers die than Israel/Jewish boys. And you don’t see this as anti-Semitic?:dubious: You’ve never heard of all the various anti-Semitic theories of Jewish elites manipulating gentiles and sacrificing gentiles for their own nefarious purposes?:dubious: With all due respect you seem to be even less informed on the subject of the history of anti-Semitism than you are about the Vietnam War. > [@](#): > > There is not an anti-Semitic bone in my body. This is an extremely silly comment. For starters, it is quite possible to believe anti-Semitic things without being an anti-Semite. Moreover, people who are anti-Semites/racists/homophobes/whatever don’t think they’re bigots, they think they’re telling the truth. Now, do you believe that Cole is right and that the US was pushed into war in Iraq because a bunch of Jewish intellectuals wanted to used the American military as “Israel’s gurka regiment” because they wanted to advance the objectives of “Tel Aviv” and were happy that “someone else’s boys” rather than Israeli boys would be “dying”? Or, do you think Juan Cole is an anti-Semitic crank? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cutting-off-aid-to-egypt-is-the-law/662825/77 "2013-07-12T12:16:07Z")
I wish Ibn W could provide backup for his bet that Nawal El Saadawi is little known or little represents a large segment of the Egyptian People. - Her involvement in the revolution is broad and enduring and she was right up front and center in 2011. And if Ibn W thinks she has few supporters - on the other hand she must be well known to those in Egypt who hate her. She has been on “fundamentalist death lists” What s courageous and strong and influential Egyptian woman this revolutionary and doctor and author appears to be. Why does Ibn W feel the need to play down her role in this revolution? I posted the full article from the link in the hope that Ibn W and others might read it. [http://mobile.theroot.com/articles/world/2011/02/egypt\_news\_an\_interview\_with\_activist\_nawal\_el\_saadawi.html](http://mobile.theroot.com/articles/world/2011/02/egypt_news_an_interview_with_activist_nawal_el_saadawi.html) > [@](#): > > Egypt News: An Interview With Activist Nawal El Saadawi > For more than five decades, the famed Egyptian physician, writer and feminist has been fighting the powers that be. The Root caught up with her just hours before President Mubarak stepped down. > By Rebecca Walker Updated Friday, Feb. 11, 2011, at 12:20 PM > > Nawal El Saadawi – an Egyptian psychiatrist, scholar, novelist, feminist and activist – has been agitating for change in her home country for more than 50 years. An outspoken opponent of female genital mutilation, she was fired from her position as Egypt’s director of health education in 1972. When President Anwar Sadat threw her in prison for her activism in 1981, she penned her memoirs on a roll of toilet paper. A committed secularist, her name appears on fundamentalist death lists. > > Now 79, she has lived in exile off and on for the past 15 years, teaching at Duke University and Spelman College. For the past year or so, she’s been back at home in Egypt, writing and organizing young activists. The Root’s Rebecca Walker caught up with her early this morning as she was heading out into the streets of Cairo – right before President Mubarak stepped down. > > The Root: Where are you now? > > Nawal El Saadawi: I am home in my apartment in Cairo, and we are preparing to go out into streets. > > TR: Are you going to [Tahrir] Square? > > NS: The square is full. There is no more room in the square, and so we have decided that we will be everywhere. Egyptians will be in every square, on every street, at the Presidential Palace and at the national television station. We will be in every place. This revolution has unified us. We are not men and women, Christian and Muslim, professional and nonprofessional; we are all Egyptians, and we will not let Egypt burn. > > TR: How are you organizing this revolution? Is there leadership among the people? > > NS: We are doing it all with Facebook and mobile phone and e-mail. > > TR: Are you concerned about who will take Mubarak’s place? What about the Muslim Brotherhood, or other extremist groups? > > NS: I am not at all worried about the Brotherhood. There is a lot of exaggeration about this organization, and it is used to frighten women here and Western women, too. The Muslim Brotherhood is a minority. They do not lead the revolution, and many of the men involved in the organization want a secular constitution. Men and women protested in the square and died in the square together. > > There was not one single harassment of a woman in the square. And these are covered women, secular women, all women from every background. No, it was not the Muslim Brotherhood who hurt women, it was Mubarak’s people who entered the square and killed. All of this talk about the Brotherhood is an attempt to use religion to divide the people. Do not worry; the Muslim Brotherhood will never rule Egypt. > > TR: What role would you like the U.S. to play? > > NS: I don’t expect the power or support or interference of anyone, of any government. We here in Egypt are fed up with U.S. colonialism. Obama is a pragmatic person and thinking of the interests of his country; I understand this. But now he is confused: One minute he supports Mubarak, one minute he doesn’t; one moment he is afraid of the Muslim Brotherhood, the next he is not. Now I believe in the people of Egypt only, I depend on the people of Egypt only. > > TR: Your work has mainly revolved around women’s rights and equality. How are these issues playing out in the revolution? What is the role of women on the ground? > > NS: Women and men are in the streets as equals now. We are in the revolution completely. Of course if you know the history of revolutions, you find that after the revolution, often men take over and women’s rights are ignored. In order to keep our rights after the revolution, women must be unified. We must have our women’s union again. We cannot fight individually. > > TR: How do you know that the people who will follow Mubarak will honor your hopes for change? > > NS: This revolution changed everything. In history, the millions win, that is democracy. Now the people in the street say no to Mubarak and then will form a temporary government, protected by the army. Then we have to protect the revolution from being aborted; that is the most important fight. > > I must go now. There are many people waiting here for me. It is time to go on and do the next things that must be done. > > Rebecca Walker writes frequently for The Root. > > Like The Root on Facebook. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cutting-off-aid-to-egypt-is-the-law/662825/78 "2013-07-12T13:56:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not really. Congress can act decisively, if it so chooses. If it doesn’t act, then the natural conclusion is they, the authors of the law, are OK with the president’s actions and consider it consistent with the law. So Congress passes a law. The president ignores the law. And Congress is expected to pass a “No, We Really Meant It The First Time Act”? Seems like a strange way to interpret the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cutting-off-aid-to-egypt-is-the-law/662825/79 "2013-07-12T13:59:15Z")
> [@](#): > > He claimed that the US went to War in Iraq because the US defense department was controlled by a “pro-Likud intellectuals” of which members he identified in various articles only Jews. Show a quote where Juan Cole says what you are claiming he said. I posted what he wrote. Why can’t you take it in his own words? > [@](#): > > Here is my take on the Lawrence Franklin espionage scandal in the Pentagon. It is an echo of the one-two punch secretly planned by the pro-Likud faction in the Department of Defense. > [The Pentagon lost the Afghanistan and Iraq Wars, so why are we upping its Funding to $778 billion?](http://www.juancole.com/2004/08/pent). Where does Cole state that the DOD is ‘controlled’ by pro-Likud intellectuals? A faction can exist in a government agency but not control much of anything. Iraq was invaded for many many illegitimate and irrational reasons. The contributions by Wolfowitz and others read a part of it but not the most significant part in my view. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cutting-off-aid-to-egypt-is-the-law/662825/80 "2013-07-12T14:04:23Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > So Congress passes a law. The president ignores the law. And Congress is expected to pass a “No, We Really Meant It The First Time Act”? > > Seems like a strange way to interpret the Constitution. Firstly, I posted this before I had read that the law gives the President the sole authority to determine when the law must be invoked, so it’s actually even squishier than I thought at the time. But in general , yeah, what I posted is true. It’s impossible to write most laws to execute themselves like a mathematical algorithm. Someone has to interpret what they mean, and that’s generally the executive branch. The “checks” that keeps that branch from going too far are: 1) The next election 2) The courts 3) Congress, through further legislation or impeachment. Read the papers, and you’ll see opinions by well informed people all over the map on the issue of whether this is a coup or not. Personally, I think it is. But I’m not “The Decider”. Obama is. Congress gave him that authority and if they so desire, they can take it back. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cutting-off-aid-to-egypt-is-the-law/662825.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cutting-off-aid-to-egypt-is-the-law/662825.md?page=5)