# Cyclists.. evil bastards? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 9, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-evil-bastards/685732 "2014-04-09T17:03:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-evil-bastards/685732/21 "2014-04-09T18:13:33Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > I’m not conflating stop signs with traffic lights at all. There are no traffic lights at most four way stops. Just signs. > > Signs that say, ‘Stop’. Do it. Stop. > > How is this hard for you to understand? Well, you did bring up what you do at red lights in your previous post. I don’t blame people for being confused. ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-evil-bastards/685732/22 "2014-04-09T18:19:14Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](#): > > I’ve lived in a very rural area and a large town/small city of about 100,000 where there’s a regular grid system and lots of 4 way stops. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a motorist blow through a 4 way stop in the city. I think perhaps your vision of how the stop at the stop sign looks is very different than mine. “Blow through” has a different connotation to me than “not coming to a full stop.” But I understand your view. Thanks for that. ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-evil-bastards/685732/23 "2014-04-09T18:21:44Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Your ‘privileged’ attitude comes through loud and clear, and I don’t like it. > > Another thing that gets my goat is people who walk or run in the street. A few months ago I was pulling out of the driveway from work and just as I did a runner appeared from behind the van that was parked on the curb on my side. I could not see the runner because he had been hidden by the van and the cars behind it. I almost hit him. Yes, I did stop at the end of the driveway. Had the runner been on the sidewalk I would have been able to see him, but this idiot doesn’t understand physics! I’d prefer to keep this discussion on topic about cyclists at 4 way stops. It is fine that you think I have a privileged attitude. I asked, and that is the way you see it. All good. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-evil-bastards/685732/24 "2014-04-09T18:22:23Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Well, you did bring up what you do at red lights in your previous post. I don’t blame people for being confused. The first time my dad’s dementia was really apparent I was trying to take him to his neurologist appointment. I’d never been to the office and I hadn’t really adjusted to his dementia so I was completely counting on his ability to give me directions. He got stop signs and stop lights confused about a half dozen times, and the poor guy just couldn’t keep them straight. You might think it’s not a big deal, but all his directions were things like “go through the next three stop signs then turn left”, so there was a huge difference between stop SIGNS and stop LIGHTS. It was really upsetting because 1) I kept almost getting lost and 2) it was so clear he couldn’t help himself. My point being, **elbows** , you should see a neurologist and make sure everything is ok before you start confusing your family too. ---
**Author:** ![HipGnosis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/76d3ee/32.png) [@HipGnosis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HipGnosis)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-evil-bastards/685732/25 "2014-04-09T18:35:59Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > I think perhaps your vision of how the stop at the stop sign looks is very different than mine. “Blow through” has a different connotation to me than “not coming to a full stop.” But I understand your view. Thanks for that. I gotta say you come off as a jerk. Your lines of “I’m looking for opinions, not debate” and “I’d prefer to keep this discussion to this situation so this doesn’t degrade into the typical bike vs. car” after you ask how car drivers see other cars act is not analogous to open discussion. You use the ambiguous term “looks” and then question “blow through”… It seems you started with an answer you’re looking to get. But you sure aren’t getting it from me. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-evil-bastards/685732/26 "2014-04-09T18:44:02Z")
No dementia, so sorry Doc! 🙂 And you are all correct, my example did mention, a red light, my bad. (But ‘stop sign’ could have been substituted without changing one iota of the intent, just sayin’) Still, I am sorry that I was not more clear and that it was confusing. It’s just that to me, stop signs and red lights are interchangeable as they both require the same action. Stop. Easier with a sign actually, I mean it’s spelled out for ya, right there! And where I live most cars actually stop at stop signs. Always at four way stops. And this is as I feel it should be, since you asked. Surely you’re not suggesting because others do it wrong, you should get to to. Are you? ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-evil-bastards/685732/27 "2014-04-09T18:48:04Z")
> [@HipGnosis](#): > > I gotta say you come off as a jerk. > Your lines of “I’m looking for opinions, not debate” and “I’d prefer to keep this discussion to this situation so this doesn’t degrade into the typical bike vs. car” after you ask how car drivers see other cars act is not analogous to open discussion. > You use the ambiguous term “looks” and then question “blow through”… > > It seems you started with an answer you’re looking to get. But you sure aren’t getting it from me. I used the term looks to mean envision, how each of us is picturing it in our mind. I’m honestly not looking for a specific answer. I realize everyone will judge how cyclists proceed at a 4 way stop differently. I am biased because I’m a cyclist and I don’t see anything inherently sinister or dangerous when a cyclist clearly would have right of way if they stopped and can clear an intersection before a car can enter the intersection. Others see that as cyclists being entitled or privileged, which I respect. It is their opinion and I’m okay with that. I’m just wondering if they feel the same way about cars that do the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![keeganst94](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a6a055/32.png) [@keeganst94](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/keeganst94)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-evil-bastards/685732/28 "2014-04-09T18:50:51Z")
I wouldn’t consider you a jerk if you slowed to around 5 or so mph. For people saying he should make a full and complete stop…where is this paradise that you drive where people make full and complete stops at stop signs? I’ve driven pretty extensively, and I’d say less than 1% of people in any city make full and complete stops. ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-evil-bastards/685732/29 "2014-04-09T18:51:35Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Surely you’re not suggesting because others do it wrong, you should get to to. Are you? Only sort of. I’m suggesting that if someone feels it is wrong for cyclists that should apply equally to cars. I don’t get upset if I see a car come to a rolling stop at a 4-way stop with no other traffic. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-evil-bastards/685732/30 "2014-04-09T18:51:46Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > It’s just that to me, stop signs and red lights are interchangeable as they both require the same action. Stop. Easier with a sign actually, I mean it’s spelled out for ya, right there! Well, with a red light, you’re supposed to remain stopped until it’s no longer red. If you try that with a stop _sign_, you’re going to be waiting a long time! ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-evil-bastards/685732/31 "2014-04-09T18:53:54Z")
People complain about cyclists because most people drive cars. Cyclists are the minority. But the truth is drivers are the jerks. They’re the ones driving gas-guzzling 1000+ pounds of glass and metal that endanger the lives of everyone around them and pollute the atmosphere. Not to mention the vast stretches of public space that have been turned into concrete and blacktop, purely for their use. But they don’t think about that. Instead they complain about cyclists. ---
**Author:** ![EmAnJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@EmAnJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmAnJ)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-evil-bastards/685732/32 "2014-04-09T18:58:51Z")
Avid cyclist, both as a commuter and as a roadie. OP is a jerk. I understand not coming to a stop if there is zero traffic. I would do a rolling stop in my vehicle in most of those types of situations. If there is any traffic, you STOP before you take your right of way. The stop is essentially the moment you ‘get in line’ for right of way. Being on a bike does not negate this rule. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-evil-bastards/685732/33 "2014-04-09T19:03:29Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > Thanks for your views on this. I assume you don’t cycle much, which is fine because I am looking for varied opinions. Would it be safe to assume that every time you are approaching a 4 way stop and there are any other cars around, even ones that are at least 30 feet away from the intersection and slowing down, that you come to a complete stop before proceeding? . _complete_ stop before proceeding? Maybe not, but certainly only a MPH or so, walking speed. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-evil-bastards/685732/34 "2014-04-09T19:14:26Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > People complain about cyclists because most people drive cars. Cyclists are the minority. > > But the truth is drivers are the jerks. They’re the ones driving gas-guzzling 1000+ pounds of glass and metal that endanger the lives of everyone around them and pollute the atmosphere. Not to mention the vast stretches of public space that have been turned into concrete and blacktop, purely for their use. > > But they don’t think about that. Instead they complain about cyclists. I walk along the Embarcadero in SF. In the last couple of months, there have been the following incidents: one small dog killed, another taken to vet, one baby carriage hit, one elderly person on walker hit and taken to hospital- all hit when they were on the sidewalk. All by bicyclists. And, there’s even a dedicated bike lane. Cyclists zoom on the sidewalk at high speed, ignoring traffic laws. They are indeed a danger to others. I have asked some of them to “use the bike lane” and got the finger. When I asked one at a light where he HAD to stop, he said it was safer FOR HIM to ride on the sidewalk. In San Jose, I regularly have to brake to avoid cyclists at nite, riding all dressed in black, not obeying traffic laws, and with no lights or reflectors. Hitting one would be a danger to my car and insurance, and swerving is dangerous to others. Read some comments about the San Jose Bike party, where gangs of cyclists will clog streets and intersections, wander in and take stuff from stores, play loud music late at nite, urinate in public and toss trash and bottles everywhere. many ride drunk. A good % of cyclists obey traffic laws, etc. However, there is a large lawless element. You talk about pollution, but I WALK mostly and I thus pollute the same as a cyclist. Their lack of pollution does not give them the right to be scofflaws or endanger others. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-evil-bastards/685732/35 "2014-04-09T19:28:19Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > I’d prefer to keep this discussion on topic about cyclists at 4 way stops. > > It is fine that you think I have a privileged attitude. I asked, and that is the way you see it. All good. My point was it is hard enough driving as it is without having to worry about fools who think they own the roads. They are for cars, not for bikers or for runners! We only have to tolerate you because the law says so. I don’t like bikes on the road at all. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-evil-bastards/685732/36 "2014-04-09T19:32:29Z")
So, if you don’t mind someone else doing it illegally, that makes it okay for you to do it? Can’t they say the same, seeing you do it? Now no one feels they have to actually ‘stop’ at stop signs. What? And, a red light is a complete stop and you have to wait, but because a stop sign you may not have to wait, so you don’t actually have to stop? What? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-evil-bastards/685732/37 "2014-04-09T20:00:57Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > My point was it is hard enough driving as it is without having to worry about fools who think they own the roads. They are for cars, not for bikers or for runners! We only have to tolerate you because the law says so. I don’t like bikes on the road at all. [California Vehicle Code SECTION 21200-21212](http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=veh&group=21001-22000&file=21200-21212) > [@](#): > > 1. (a) **A person riding a bicycle or operating a pedicab upon a > highway has all the rights and is subject to all the provisions > applicable to the driver of a vehicle by this division,** including, > but not limited to, provisions concerning driving under the influence > of alcoholic beverages or drugs, and by Division 10 (commencing with > Section 20000), Section 27400, Division 16.7 (commencing with > Section 39000), Division 17 (commencing with Section 40000.1), and > Division 18 (commencing with Section 42000), except those provisions > which by their very nature can have no application. Don’t know about your state. I had more close calls as a runner on the sidewalk than the road. Sidewalks are often badly maintained and believe it or not, concrete is harder than asphalt. As a cyclist, I do stop at stop signs. I’ve never seen a “coast through” sign. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-evil-bastards/685732/38 "2014-04-09T20:09:26Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > [California Vehicle Code SECTION 21200-21212](http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=veh&group=21001-22000&file=21200-21212) > > Don’t know about your state. > > I had more close calls as a runner on the sidewalk than the road. Sidewalks are often badly maintained and believe it or not, concrete is harder than asphalt. Then run on the grass! DON’T RUN IN THE STREET!!! ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-evil-bastards/685732/39 "2014-04-09T20:15:17Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Then run on the grass! DON’T RUN IN THE STREET!!! Come to where I live and show me the grass that’s not someone’s lawn. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-evil-bastards/685732/40 "2014-04-09T20:16:14Z")
“My name is Telemark and I don’t always come to a complete stop at a stop sign, in a car or on my bike.” “Hi, Telemark!” In my experience, most cars don’t come to a complete stop at a stop sign or when making a right turn on red. In a perfect world they would, but the majority don’t. I’m not convinced this is excessively dangerous but it’s certainly not safer. When I’m riding in urban traffic I will almost always come to a complete stop at a light, but I also try to time my pace so I don’t have to. In suburban or rural areas the number of people who come to a full stop (cars and bikes) is pretty low. When you have clear sight lines and no traffic I don’t think you are being unsafe to do so. A complete stop would be great if everyone always did it. But for the most part, they don’t. As bikers we should be more concerned with our safety since we’re at a real disadvantage in a collision, but even then it’s human nature to take some shortcuts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-evil-bastards/685732.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-evil-bastards/685732.md?page=3)