# Cyclists should stop at stop signs, right? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 2, 2009, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-should-stop-at-stop-signs-right/519774 "2009-12-02T23:39:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-should-stop-at-stop-signs-right/519774/81 "2009-12-07T17:18:57Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > Every day in my car, I have situations where it would be quicker, more efficient, easier, and safe to violate traffic laws. But I don’t. Can you give examples? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-should-stop-at-stop-signs-right/519774/82 "2009-12-07T18:33:10Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > I’m not sure I understand your logic here. It sounds like what you’re saying is that because many drivers play fast and loose with the rules, cyclists should be able to as well. Surely that’s not what you mean. I’m saying a couple of things. One is that, yes, there are a number of traffic laws that aren’t enforced rigorously, and for good reason: their rigorous enforcement isn’t particularly necessary. (I can’t recall when’s the last time I saw a cop monitoring a 4-way stop to make sure everyone came to a full and complete stop. At a busy 4-way stop, they’d rake in as many tickets as they had time to write.) And in these situations, cyclists should be expected to take the same advantage of that _de facto_ freedom to fail to come to a complete stop that cars do. The other thing I’d be willing to go out on a limb and say is that if there are traffic laws that both drivers and cyclists violate in a manner that is hazardous or risky, both drivers and cyclists are to blame. But getting all pissed at just the cyclists seems to say more about the person who’s getting all pissed off, than it says about the cyclists. But it’s far from clear that that’s the sort of situation we’re talking about in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-should-stop-at-stop-signs-right/519774/83 "2009-12-07T19:59:18Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > IAs it stands, I have no idea what a cyclist is going to do. In San Francisco, I will stand on a street corner with with a four way stop and give you 10:1 odds, and tell you that the cyclist will not stop at the stop sign or red light regardless of traffic. Hell, I’ll give 20:1 as I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve seen it. I’d take that bet. We will stand on the busiest corner in SF at a 4 way stop light that has lots of cyclist traffic. We will wait for a cyclist to approach a red light and see if they just zip on through while heavy cross traffic is crossing the intersection. I get it. There are cyclists that might just do that. The vast majority don’t. There are _motorists_ that will do that. There are pedestrians that will do that. There are bad travelers in every segment of the population. Unfortunately, we all need to share the same roads. As **Stan Shmenge** has pointed out, there are many, many examples of drivers not having a clue how to deal with bicycles. The bad ones stand out which is why we get these broad condemnations of an entire population. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-should-stop-at-stop-signs-right/519774/84 "2009-12-07T20:07:20Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > In my state, a bicyclist must get off their bike at an intersection, and walk their bike across the street as a pedestrian. > [@Dr.Love](#): > > Cite? I’ve never heard of a law requiring this. I’ve heard of this but it’s limited to bicyclists in a crosswalk. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Love](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Dr.Love](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Love)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-should-stop-at-stop-signs-right/519774/85 "2009-12-07T20:35:33Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > I’ve heard of this but it’s limited to bicyclists in a crosswalk. Right, I’ve definitely heard that. For example, here in Arizona, it is legal for a cyclist to make a left turn through an intersection by going straight through, dismounting, and walking the bike across the crosswalk. It’s also legal to make a turn from the left turn lane, or by going straight through the intersection, stopping at the other side, rotating the bike 90 degrees, and continuing on with the normal traffic. But the bicyclist can act as a vehicle if they wish. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-should-stop-at-stop-signs-right/519774/86 "2009-12-07T20:57:03Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > You’re joking, right? I’ve been to other countries with lax driving rules. Relaxed is not the word to use. Frantic, maybe. Not relaxed. Everything was about edging out other drivers and gaining advantage. > > Thanks, I’ll take laws over that. Yeah, I second that. I’ve lived in Germany and then travelled to Europe a few times. They have stricter laws, more signs, and more regulation than the United States, and they’re better drivers with less driving stress than anywhere I’ve been in the United States. I’m currently working in Mexico, which is at the complete opposite end of the spectrum. **Fiveyearlurker** describes it excellently by saying, “Everything [is] about edging out other drivers and gaining advantage.” The daily stress of the traffic sucks. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-should-stop-at-stop-signs-right/519774/87 "2009-12-07T23:14:36Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > I’d take that bet. We will stand on the busiest corner in SF at a 4 way stop light that has lots of cyclist traffic. We will wait for a cyclist to approach a red light and see if they just zip on through while heavy cross traffic is crossing the intersection. > > . I said “four way stop” meaning stop signs, but no, they generally don’t stop at red lights either unless traffic prevents it. As soon as there is a hole in the traffic(not a change in the light) they will go. Damn near without exception. Anyone in San Francisco think that bikes stop at stop signs regularly? ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-should-stop-at-stop-signs-right/519774/88 "2009-12-07T23:56:29Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > the cyclist will not stop at the stop sign or **red light** regardless of traffic Bolding mine. Just as you are more sensitive to bikes doing stupid things, I tend to be more sensitive to cars doing them. We could go back and forth citing anecdote after anecdote but as I’ve said many times, there are clueless people on bikes and cars. I just don’t think it is fair to condemn an entire population based on the actions of a few. Now, maybe your experiences are that the clueless cyclists far outweigh the vigilant ones, which is a fair argument. I don’t happen to agree with that but I guess that is where we disagree. Given that a car will inflict far more damage than a bike if they screw up and roll through a stop sign at the wrong time, I think cars need to take greater care than bikes. In other words, cars should almost without exception come to a full stop while for bikes it really depends on the situation. I give bikes a pass because they have greater visibility, are more agile and have far less momentum than a car. Bikes mean people are getting exercise, reducing oil use and are certainly emitting less carbon than cars, which to me makes them more of a benefit to society than cars. So, I think bikes deserve a little leeway. I’m not advocating it become legal for bikes to run stop signs and definitely not lights, but I am saying that there are times and places where it really isn’t a big deal. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2009, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-should-stop-at-stop-signs-right/519774/89 "2009-12-08T01:28:04Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > Bolding mine. > Given that a car will inflict far more damage than a bike if they screw up and roll through a stop sign at the wrong time, I think cars need to take greater care than bikes. In other words, cars should almost without exception come to a full stop while for bikes it really depends on the situation. Doesn’t it sound like we are in agreement? There are different rules for bikes and cars on the road. So, why do we pretend that they are both the same vehicles with the same rules, responsibilities and rights? I’m not running bikes off the road. I’m just trying to get past them as quickly as possible because I don’t know what rules that particular cyclist is deciding to follow, but it is very uncommon to see them following the actual rules, so I can pretty much dismiss that possibility. Whether this is a situation that requires a full stop or not might be obvious to you, but how am I supposed to judge how you make that decision? If we’re going to say that cars and bikes are equal then both have to follow the same rules, regardless of the situation. Anything else breeds resentment and confusion. If you don’t think cyclists have to stop at stop signs then petition the state government to change the laws. But, right now, that’s the law, and you should be following it. To be fair, I hold cars to the same standard. Sufficiently few cars use turning signals that I can’t reasonably expect that a car without a signal on is going straight. So, I have to cede right of way in certain situations because I don’t know what that car is doing. If cyclists and cars all followed the same set of rules, it would be a much simpler situation. ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2009, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-should-stop-at-stop-signs-right/519774/90 "2009-12-08T04:51:22Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > I’m not running bikes off the road. I’m just trying to get past them as quickly as possible because I don’t know what rules that particular cyclist is deciding to follow, but it is very uncommon to see them following the actual rules, so I can pretty much dismiss that possibility. Whether this is a situation that requires a full stop or not might be obvious to you, but how am I supposed to judge how you make that decision? Cars run stop signs all the time, too. And stop lights as well. It has been said that red lights in Boston are merely a suggestion. Do you assume all cars are going to run the stop sign/light? How do you judge how the other drivers are going make that decision? You have decided all cyclists will do some random thing because you witnessed some cyclists doing something stupid. Do you make the same assumption about all cars? You said you hold cars to the same standard, but I’m not sure if you mean you assume all cars are pretty random or if you mean they should be obeying the law. Do you ever go over the speed limit? Ever approach a stop sign ready to make a right turn and not come to a full stop? Ever touch the white line? Even if you never do those things, clearly the vast majority of drivers do. As such, you will need to treat drivers _exactly_ the same as cyclists. So why the hate for cyclists? They are neither better nor worse than the average driver. You just aren’t going to convince me that as a group cyclists are more dangerous than drivers. There are dumb cyclists and dumb drivers. Go ask Mrs. Governator if she follows all the rules of the road. I will forever be more fearful of an idiot with a cell phone and a license than I will a cyclist. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2009, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-should-stop-at-stop-signs-right/519774/91 "2009-12-08T15:07:11Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > I will forever be more fearful of an idiot with a cell phone and a license than I will a cyclist. I’m more fearful of a cycling – bad or good – than any automobile driver, because I know that I’d kill the cyclist, and at worse, only hospitalize the bad driver. ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-should-stop-at-stop-signs-right/519774/92 "2009-12-08T15:23:12Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > I’m more fearful of a cycling – bad or good – than any automobile driver, because I know that I’d kill the cyclist, and at worse, only hospitalize the bad driver. Right. Because no accident between cars ever ends up with a fatality. To each his own, I suppose. Personally I’d rather kill than be killed. Whether I’m in a car or on a bike, a bad driver is far more likely to kill me than a cyclist. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2009, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-should-stop-at-stop-signs-right/519774/93 "2009-12-08T16:06:16Z")
> [@FallenAngel](#): > > A cyclist who runs a stop sign deserves to be a big red spot in the road. Unfortunately, the motorist who creams the cyclist doesn’t deserve the trauma s/he is going to suffer as a result of someone else’s negligence. I say this as both a motorist and a cyclist. Charming. A death sentence for a minor traffic infraction. It’s a good thing you’re not in charge of … well, hopefully anything. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-should-stop-at-stop-signs-right/519774/94 "2009-12-08T16:14:35Z")
A biker that runs a stop sign in front of me has a better than average chance of becoming my next hood ornament. Yes, you should stop at stop signs. Even if there is no traffic coming. Period. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-should-stop-at-stop-signs-right/519774/95 "2009-12-08T16:18:29Z")
Bicyclists who don’t stop at red lights and stop signs aren’t rude, they aren’t situationally unaware, they are criminals. The momentum argument is bullshit. Cars lose momentum too when they stop. You think brake pads and gas are cheap? ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2009, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-should-stop-at-stop-signs-right/519774/96 "2009-12-08T17:55:39Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > A biker that runs a stop sign in front of me has a better than average chance of becoming my next hood ornament. > > Yes, you should stop at stop signs. Even if there is no traffic coming. Period. A cyclist that runs a stop sign in front of you isn’t the type of cyclist I’m arguing in favor for. Of course cyclists shouldn’t run stop signs if there is cross traffic. That is a strawman argument. [QUOTE=Raguleader] Bicyclists who don’t stop at red lights and stop signs aren’t rude, they aren’t situationally unaware, they are criminals. The momentum argument is bullshit. Cars lose momentum too when they stop. You think brake pads and gas are cheap? [/QUOTE] Going fast uses more gas, too. I assume you never speed and never break any driving rule, ever. Otherwise, how can you seriously say it is okay to break one law but not another? ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-should-stop-at-stop-signs-right/519774/97 "2009-12-08T18:41:38Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > Right. Because no accident between cars ever ends up with a fatality. Well, given the types of circumstances in which I’m likely to either collide with a bicyclist or a car. I don’t encounter many bicyclists running stop signs at 80 miles per hour on the interstate. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > To each his own, I suppose. Personally I’d rather kill than be killed. Whether I’m in a car or on a bike, a bad driver is far more likely to kill me than a cyclist. Well, me too. But I still don’t want to kill. The bicyclist won’t kill me, but that doesn’t mean that I _want_ to kill him. Honestly, my “fear” of _all_ of them is because there are enough _bad_ ones that I have to treat them all as unpredictable. And in my experience, no, that same “fear” doesn’t apply equally to automobile drivers. ---
**Author:** ![Agent\_Foxtrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@Agent\_Foxtrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Foxtrot)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2009, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-should-stop-at-stop-signs-right/519774/98 "2009-12-08T19:18:13Z")
**cmosdes** , I have absolutely no issues with you as a poster and please don’t think I’m picking on you. Your post just happened to sum up with all I disagree with in this thread. Nothing personal. > [@cmosdes](#): > > The momentum argument isn’t because it saves energy, it is because it saves effort. Biking is already difficult. Having to constantly slow down and speed up just makes it that much more difficult. Think about the difference between trying to ride up a hill vs. riding on flat ground. I’m not saying this is a reason to make running stop signs and lights legal. I am saying that getting back up to speed on a bike is not as trivial as stepping on a gas pedal. Boo-frickin’-hoo. A cyclist chooses to ride a bike just as much as I choose to drive a car. You accept the duties and responsibilities of riding just as much as I do driving. > [@](#): > > As **Knorf** points out, bicyclists should be given a ticket if caught, just like you should get a ticket if you go over the speed limit. But there are degrees to the recklessness. Just like you wouldn’t expect to get a ticket for going 5mph over the speed limit, I wouldn’t expect to get a ticket for running a stop sign on my bike if it were clear that no other traffic (vehicle, pedestrian and bike) were around. This issue here is that if you run a stop sign, **you are breaking the law.** There are no varying degrees of enforcement or special considerations for vehicle type. And the strawman argument of, “Well, drivers break laws in their cars and get away with it, so we should be able to on our bikes!” holds no water. If you manage to go five miles above the speed limit on your bike, you are subject to a citation just as much as I am. > [@](#): > > I’m not trying to condone the obvious idiots who run stop signs and lights and cause near accidents all the time. Anyone on the road who think the rules don’t apply to them is an idiot. Anyone who ignores the rules of the road and as a result endangers not only themselves but others is an even bigger idiot. Dude, that’s exactly what almost every cyclist in this thread is trying to make a case for! > [@](#): > > But surely we can agree that there are times when breaking the law isn’t by definition a self-absorbed act by a self-righteous asshole. I’m not sure I can agree with that. Breaking a law is anti-social behavior by definition. Regardless of whether you’re speeding, robbing a bank, or committing murder, you are acting in a manner of self-interest above the interest of others. > [@](#): > > In a car you lose perhaps 10 seconds and a small amount of gas having to slow down and speed up. On a bike, you probably lose a similar amount of time but you also have to extend a great deal more effort. Again, you choose to ride, I choose to drive. Ain’t America great? 😉 > [@](#): > > This isn’t a reason to make running stop signs and lights on a bike legal, but I do think it is a reason to give a bit of leniency for it. I’ll grant that nobody’s going to die if you as a cyclist come to a rolling stop (1-2 mph) at a stop sign. The issue here is that a great number of cyclists abuse that leniency, and some in a very assholish manner. > [@](#): > > As my final argument, I’ll say that there are times when the bike lane ends up in the middle of the road around here. I don’t want my ass hanging out in the middle of that road as some driver is coming up behind me. I’d rather come up to the line, check for cross traffic and go. Bikes are all but invisible and I don’t want to be there if I don’t have to be. If your bike lane ends in the middle of the road, then the traffic planners at your state highway authority are idiots. You’re doing right here; vigilance is the best defense for a bicycler. Just be courteous to the drivers… your chosen method of transportation doesn’t make you special. Again, not picking on you specifically, **cmosdes**. Your post just summed up things perfectly. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2009, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-should-stop-at-stop-signs-right/519774/99 "2009-12-08T20:11:34Z")
Wow, if this thread were a microcosm of what’s going on out on the roads then all you would see are cars pulled over and bikes dropped on the pavement and everybody having fistfights. Let’s see, here is what I’ve learned so far here: Everybody is supposed to obey the law Many drivers obey traffic laws Many cyclists obey traffic laws Many drivers break traffic laws when it’s convenient for them Many cyclists break traffic laws when it’s convenient for them People who break the laws piss off people who obey the laws So far I’d say it’s a draw. If you’re railing against cyclists rolling through a stop sign when there is no cross-traffic, then you’d better call the police when you’re doing 75 in a 55, because you deserve a ticket. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-should-stop-at-stop-signs-right/519774/100 "2009-12-08T20:18:31Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > A cyclist that runs a stop sign in front of you isn’t the type of cyclist I’m arguing in favor for. Of course cyclists shouldn’t run stop signs if there is cross traffic. That is a strawman argument. Honestly, I think we’re in agreement. The vast majority of what I’m railing against is the cyclist who steal right of way at the stop signs. The problem is that where I live, it is virtually every cyclist. It’s not a select view. Maybe it is geographic and where you live it isn’t as much of an issue. But, I’ve VERY rarely seen a cyclist not run the stop sign if it isn’t his turn. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-should-stop-at-stop-signs-right/519774.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-should-stop-at-stop-signs-right/519774.md?page=6)