# Cyclists who deliberately ride on dangerous roads **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 11, 2009, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-who-deliberately-ride-on-dangerous-roads/485436 "2009-02-11T22:14:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-who-deliberately-ride-on-dangerous-roads/485436/141 "2013-09-22T09:56:39Z")
> [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](#): > > It’s the total absence of any responsibility that you are pinning on the person who commits the vehicular manslaughter. Every post you’ve made on the subject has focused 100% on the role the cyclist played in their own death and none, at all, on the person who actually did the killing. > > Every one of your posts is repeating your mantra a cyclist could have lived, if only THEY had done something different, like choosing a different route, or a different road, or a different time. It’s abundantly clear you’re “blaming the victim” for their own death because your position is the cyclist could have avoided it. No, she’s not doing that. She’s pointing out that a cyclist can _continue_ living if they act sensibly _in the future_. No victims are being shamed, because we are not talking about any victims. Cyclists, like anyone else, can only control their own behaviour, not that of others around them. It’s foolish to say that they should rely on the good behaviour of others. Doesn’t mean that it’s not a tragedy if they are hit and killed _no matter what_, and it’s the responsibility of the bad driver. > [@](#): > > She could have avoided rape if only she’d dressed differently. She could have avoided rape if only she’d walked down a different street. She could have avoided rape if only she’d walked down the street at a different time. It doesn’t matter what she did wrong, she’s still raped! > > There’s you victim blaming, right there. A 100% parallel. No, it isn’t. A 100% parallel would be advising a young woman on how best to act to try to ensure she doesn’t become a victim. Whilst it’s sad that it’s necessary to do that, not doing so on the grounds that it’s “blaming the victim” is fucking stupid to the point of recklessness. In short, if it’s not safe to ride there, get off your fucking bike. If it’s not safe to be _anywhere_, get the fuck out. Unless, of course, you’re happy to accept the consequences, even if they’re not your fault. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-who-deliberately-ride-on-dangerous-roads/485436/142 "2013-09-22T10:32:36Z")
I think it’s possible to blame the dangerous driver/attacker for the incident while still acknowledging that the cyclist/victim has a role to play in ensuring their own personal safety. If it’s icy on the road, and the town hasn’t salted a particular stretch of road yet, you can’t just go tooling around under the excuse that it is the town’s responsibility to make the streets safe to drive on, so you’re going to fucking well drive on it. The town, for whatever reason, doesn’t make that stretch of road safe for driving during inclement weather. The smart, safe, driver is going to avoid unsafe stretches of road. Legal =/= Smart ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-who-deliberately-ride-on-dangerous-roads/485436/143 "2013-09-22T11:06:25Z")
Or as a local insurance company’s slogan once went: “Don’t be right. Be smart.” It’s a philosophy I try to apply to many aspects of my life. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-who-deliberately-ride-on-dangerous-roads/485436/144 "2013-09-22T12:17:28Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, it isn’t. A 100% parallel would be advising a young woman on how best to act to try to ensure she doesn’t become a victim. Your advise to the young woman would seem to be along the lines of ‘wear a Burka’. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-who-deliberately-ride-on-dangerous-roads/485436/145 "2013-09-22T12:48:08Z")
Well, this has been fun, but I’m going to go ride my bike on the expressway-- topless. However, I will be wearing a helmet. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-who-deliberately-ride-on-dangerous-roads/485436/146 "2013-09-22T13:07:12Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Your advise to the young woman would seem to be along the lines of ‘wear a Burka’. I read it more like, “Don’t jog alone on unlit trails.” Or “Carry pepper spray.” “Don’t take rides from strangers.” But we’re both apparently using our own biases to translate since this is all he actually said: > [@](#): > > A 100% parallel would be advising a young woman on how best to act to try to ensure she doesn’t become a victim. I’ll still bet my version is closer, and that Steophan isn’t suggesting a burka. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-who-deliberately-ride-on-dangerous-roads/485436/147 "2013-09-22T13:50:06Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > I read it more like, “Don’t jog alone on unlit trails.” Or “Carry pepper spray.” “Don’t take rides from strangers.” > > But we’re both apparently using our own biases to translate since this is all he actually said:I’ll still bet my version is closer, and that Steophan isn’t suggesting a burka. 🙂 Given that the ‘advice’ parallel in this thread, based on the OP and other commenters, is _drivers_ telling _cyclists_ what roads _they_ consider to be too dangerous for _cyclists,_ I would say my parallel is more accurate. Especially given the the criteria for such ‘dangerous’ roads is based on cars being slowed down by cyclists being on said roads. Get that burka on lest ye drive men to temptations, harlot! A suggestion going towards avoiding being a victim would be more akin to telling cyclists to do things that I would say most riders here would not find problematic: riding with the flow of traffic, using a light at night, etc., i.e. things most of us already do. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-who-deliberately-ride-on-dangerous-roads/485436/148 "2013-09-22T14:44:10Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Given that the ‘advice’ parallel in this thread, based on the OP and other commenters, is _drivers_ telling _cyclists_ what roads _they_ consider to be too dangerous for _cyclists,_ I would say my parallel is more accurate. It’s a man telling a woman that walking in the park at night is dangerous for her. He may be right, he may be wrong, but the fact that he’s a man doesn’t mean he’s trying to blame the victim. He may simply be extending his own concern about walking at night to a person who is more likely to be targeted. I know two roads in particular that I would suggest are terribly dangerous routes for cyclists. The reason is that I feel nervous about driving them in a car, and I have a powerful engine, air bags and 2000lbs of steel protecting me. I can also see from my seat that the roads do not have bike lanes, or significant shoulders, and that drivers will likely try dangerous (to the cyclist) maneuvers. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-who-deliberately-ride-on-dangerous-roads/485436/149 "2013-09-22T15:29:01Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > It’s a man telling a woman that walking in the park at night is dangerous for her. He may be right, he may be wrong, but the fact that he’s a man doesn’t mean he’s trying to blame the victim. He may simply be extending his own concern about walking at night to a person who is more likely to be targeted. The problem, Cheesesteak, is that in the past much was done to restrict cyclist access to places in the name of ‘safety’. If we were to extend the parallel (this is getting a bit thin, isn’t it?) it would be like warning someone about a path being usafe, and when they use the path without incident that same person started griping about how they can’t use their ATV on the path, then someone starts ranting when they get killed jogging on a completely different sidewalk that it is the jogger’s fault, and the petition the county to close the path to female joggers or tries to run down joggers with said ATV.\* > [@](#): > > I know two roads in particular that I would suggest are terribly dangerous routes for cyclists. The reason is that I feel nervous about driving them in a car, and I have a powerful engine, air bags and 2000lbs of steel protecting me. I can also see from my seat that the roads do not have bike lanes, or significant shoulders, and that drivers will likely try dangerous (to the cyclist) maneuvers. Like I said, you are deciding the routes are dangerous based on your criteria. The cyclist might be more capable than you think. Frankly if a road is too dangerous to cycle on it is very likely the cyclist probably already knows that. \*\* - If you think I am just pulling stuff out of thin air recall the violent Dr. Christopher T. Thompson, who slammed on his brakes right after cutting off cyclists in the name of law abiding safety! \*\* Baring the exception of the clueless cyclists who also drive unlit bikes the wrong way on roads. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-who-deliberately-ride-on-dangerous-roads/485436/150 "2013-09-22T15:56:54Z")
> [@stegon66](#): > > This one is decent enough. Nothing fancy but quite serviceable. In my experience, such evaluations are covering for some piss-poor safety issues. Frankly I have yet to see a ‘bike path’ without some critical if not fatal flaw. The last time someone described a path a have to deal with frequently as ‘perfectly fine’ I had to slam them with the fact that said path had tree roots bulging the pavement as high as 4" along its entire length, multiple blind spots, and a crumbling bridge sidewalk that wasn’t wide enough for two-way traffic. > [@](#): > > The part I’m talking about is a recent extension built to give people access to the social services offices and an oft-used ballpark that are on the edge of town. I’m not sure why this cyclist felt he had to ride on the road (especially with traffic coming from behind him). Guess he just felt like getting killed… 😕 Was he killed? Cars running into cyclists from behind is actually amazingly rare. In fact the few times it does happen alcohol is usually involved on the part of the driver. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-who-deliberately-ride-on-dangerous-roads/485436/151 "2013-09-22T16:10:02Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Your advise to the young woman would seem to be along the lines of ‘wear a Burka’. Obviously not, as others have adequately explained. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-who-deliberately-ride-on-dangerous-roads/485436/152 "2013-09-22T16:13:51Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Obviously not, as others have adequately explained. Actually it very much is the case… The others have not explained it well at all, as I have shown. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-who-deliberately-ride-on-dangerous-roads/485436/153 "2013-09-22T16:32:34Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > But I have to ask, freeways are far more dangerous than surface roads for car drivers, do you avoid freeways when you drive places…or do you just feel like getting killed? 😕 Seriously? Freeways are more dangerous than surface roads? Where do you get that? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-who-deliberately-ride-on-dangerous-roads/485436/154 "2013-09-22T16:56:40Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Actually it very much is the case… The others have not explained it well at all, as I have shown. They have explained my position clearly. If you don’t understand it, you’re an idiot. if you disagree, you’re a twat. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-who-deliberately-ride-on-dangerous-roads/485436/155 "2013-09-22T17:46:59Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > They have explained my position clearly. If you don’t understand it, you’re an idiot. if you disagree, you’re a twat. Your position: > [@](#): > > No, it isn’t. A 100% parallel would be advising a young woman on how best to act to try to ensure she doesn’t become a victim. Whilst it’s sad that it’s necessary to do that, not doing so on the grounds that it’s “blaming the victim” is fucking stupid to the point of recklessness. I retorted saying that it was closer to telling a woman to wear a burka. The primary people we are comparing this to are ThelmaLou, who is decidedly playing victim shaming games, and the OP, who 4 years ago posted complaining of bikes on a road they deemed unsafe for bicycles, mostly based on the fact that they were slowing down cars. Hence the Burka parallel. So not only are you wrong, you are lazy as well. Goody Day. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-who-deliberately-ride-on-dangerous-roads/485436/156 "2013-09-22T19:20:02Z")
There is no victim shaming happening, as at no point are we talking about victims. One can’t shame a potential victim by suggesting they take care… ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-who-deliberately-ride-on-dangerous-roads/485436/157 "2013-09-22T19:20:09Z")
> [@stegon66](#): > > This one is decent enough. Nothing fancy but quite serviceable. The part I’m talking about is a recent extension built to give people access to the social services offices and an oft-used ballpark that are on the edge of town. I’m not sure why this cyclist felt he had to ride on the road (especially with traffic coming from behind him). Guess he just felt like getting killed… 😕 So much ignorance in one post. As others have said what might look like a wonderful bike path to a non-rider could well be in fact close unusable by someone on bicycle. There are several bike paths like this around where I live. Very pretty, totally useless. But that isn’t even the reason for this post. There are two sentences in that post that rank among the stupidest I have ever read on this forum about bicycles ( and there have been some doozies in the past) Here let me quote it for you so everyone can appreciate the stupid > [@](#): > > I’m not sure why this cyclist felt he had to ride on the road (especially with traffic coming from behind him). Guess he just felt like getting killed… 😕 Read that first sentence again slowly. Read the part inside the parentheses. **(especially with traffic coming from behind him).** May I respectfully suggest that before you comment on traffic laws and safety that you oh, I don’t know maybe read what the fucking law says and take the time to learn how a bicycle is supposed to be ridden? Oh and the second sentence shows that the first was no typo. The rider was riding that way because that is what the law says AND it is the safest way to ride. Here is a short course on bicycle laws. A bicycle is a vehicle just like a car. Just as you do not drive a car against the flow of traffic, you don’t ride a bike against the flow of traffic. Slower traffic should keep to the right. Despite this the lane belongs to the slower vehicle in front. If the slower vehicle feels staying to the right is not safe they may legally take the whole lane. The responsibility for a safe pass is 100% the responsibility of the passing vehicle. Got it? You may not like it, but that is what the law says. Learn it, live it. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-who-deliberately-ride-on-dangerous-roads/485436/158 "2013-09-22T19:36:15Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > There is no victim shaming happening, as at no point are we talking about victims. One can’t shame a potential victim by suggesting they take care… Ahem: [QUOTE=ThelmaLou] If YOU want to ride your bike in heavy traffic and get killed by someone who is texting while drunk even though YOU had the right of way, have at it. And your spouse and kids can do without you for the rest of their lives. I’m sure the fact that you were in the right and the car drive was criminally negligent will be a great comfort to them. [/QUOTE] That is not ‘suggesting we take care’. It is especially ironic since bikes can often be safer in heavy traffic than in many other situations. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-who-deliberately-ride-on-dangerous-roads/485436/159 "2013-09-22T20:53:12Z")
Yep, it is quite clear that the OP and ThelmaLou’s main issue is that they don’t like sharing…they think that they are super duper uber special people who’s time is so important that they can’t be bothered to be slowed down for several seconds on their way to wait in line at Starbucks. ThelmaLou said in this thread that she doesn’t care what the data or reality says about safety…because no matter what that data is she is going to make moral judgements against those who inconvenience her purely based on situations she has made up in her mind. ---
**Author:** ![UTejas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UTejas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UTejas)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-who-deliberately-ride-on-dangerous-roads/485436/160 "2013-09-22T21:51:24Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Yep, it is quite clear that the OP and ThelmaLou’s main issue is that they don’t like sharing…they think that they are super duper uber special people who’s time is so important that they can’t be bothered to be slowed down for several seconds on their way to wait in line at Starbucks. > > ThelmaLou said in this thread that she doesn’t care what the data or reality says about safety…because no matter what that data is she is going to make moral judgements against those who inconvenience her purely based on situations she has made up in her mind. I think this is a part of it, but probably not the whole story. I think the main problem is that people like **Steophan** are well-intentioned but perhaps not aware of the full issue. The comparison was given to advising a woman to not take a certain route at night. Obviously this kind of advice is well-intentioned, but it also assumes she’s unaware of the risks. Consider a case where she has the choice of walking through a very safe neighborhood but on a poorly lit street vs walking through a dangerous neighborhood along a well-lit major road. The advice that she take the well-lit road is definitely well-intentioned but probably not the best advice. Then if something does happen in that safer neighborhood if she ignores your advice, it’s a short distance to “Well, she was supposed to be where it was well-lit but she chose not to go that way. What happened to her is mostly her own fault.” The blame lies with the person who commits a crime against the person behaving legally. **ThelmaLou** seems to think that a cyclist chooses a route because they believe they’re invincible. It is the exact opposite. If I have the choice between a bike lane on a multi-lane road with heavy traffic, multiple places where a car might make a turn right in front of me or pull out directly in front of me as compared to a twisty back road with much lower traffic volumes, I will take the latter every time. And when I am on that twisty road, I’ll be in the lane, positioned for maximum visibility. Yeah, you might get mad because of the 20 seconds out of your day it takes to pass me, but at least you see me. Those are all choices made out of safety and yet you’d probably be mad that I’m not doing something else that you think is safer. Really, we’re appreciative that you’re so concerned for us, but we’re not so appreciative if your advice is “ride on a less dangerous road” when first of all you have no idea what is actually dangerous and second that your suggested options all involve any road that you are not planning on using. Again, a road is not inherently dangerous. You should be way madder that lots of drivers are out there behaving illegally, not mad that cyclists are out there behaving legally. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-who-deliberately-ride-on-dangerous-roads/485436.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cyclists-who-deliberately-ride-on-dangerous-roads/485436.md?page=9)