# D.C. Statehood **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 16, 2016, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421 "2016-04-16T22:40:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421/201 "2016-05-10T21:02:22Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > Someone refresh my memory, didn’t we fight a war once about something taxation something representation? Though I suppose people in DC may pay no taxes, I’ve never lived there so I don’t know. The DC license plate reads “Taxation Without Representation”. So I think I have a pretty good idea of what’s up on that issue. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421/202 "2016-05-10T21:09:31Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > Though I suppose people in DC may pay no taxes, I’ve never lived there so I don’t know. We pay all Federal taxes that people in the 50 states do, in contrast to Americans who live in the various territories. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421/203 "2016-05-10T22:09:19Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > Someone refresh my memory, didn’t we fight a war once about something taxation something representation? Though I suppose people in DC may pay no taxes, I’ve never lived there so I don’t know. People in DC pay federal and DC income taxes. They have no vote in Congress. Until recently they couldn’t even spend their own tax money without complete control of the city budget by Congress. The DC government recently put “Taxation Without Representation” as the motto on District license plates to make the point. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421/204 "2016-05-10T22:22:57Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > You can’t think of the benefits and responsibilities of being a sovereign, self-governing state vs. a dependent territory? If the territory is in fact self-governing – which D.C. is not, but could be, without statehood – then, no, I see no benefits or responsibilities – **other** than representation. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421/205 "2016-05-10T22:25:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Let’s look at the problem the other way around: > > What would it take (politically; I know there’s no way around securing their consent constitutionally) to get Virginia and Maryland to let go of the counties of the Washington Metropolitan Area and cede them to the new State of Columbia? > > There’s gotta be **something.** I repeat. Does anyone have any ideas? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421/206 "2016-05-10T22:43:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I repeat. Does anyone have any ideas? What problem does this solve that isn’t better solved by folding the whole mess into Maryland? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421/207 "2016-05-11T00:21:55Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I repeat. Does anyone have any ideas? No. These are some of the wealthiest and most populous counties of each state, and home to features many would count integral to their life and identity. Many Marylanders and Virginians, inside and outside the counties in question, would strenuously object. > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > What problem does this solve that isn’t better solved by folding the whole mess into Maryland? Neither of these notions is remotely as practicable as simple DC statehood. That requires only that Congress get on board. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421/208 "2016-05-11T01:19:23Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Let’s look at the problem the other way around: > > What would it take (politically; I know there’s no way around securing their consent constitutionally) to get Virginia and Maryland to let go of the counties of the Washington Metropolitan Area and cede them to the new State of Columbia? > > There’s gotta be **something.** Why is this even a question? It’s like asking what would it take for Connecticut to give Bridgeport to New York. It’s a proposal that nobody is interested in. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421/209 "2016-05-11T12:47:34Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If the territory is in fact self-governing – which D.C. is not, but could be, without statehood – then, no, I see no benefits or responsibilities – **other** than representation. A state can’t be completely abolished, or taken over, or its government removed or destroyed and ruled by Congress. DC has no such protection. It has no sovereignty. It has no right even to exist. Congress can govern it however it wants. And simply declaring it to be “self-governing” doesn’t change that. A state is sovereign - it needs no other government’s permission to exist or self-govern, and no other state or federal government can ever take that away from it. There’s an enormous difference. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421/210 "2016-05-12T17:55:00Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Provide cites that the Constitution didn’t mean “cession” when it literally says “cession.” Your reasoning isn’t convincing enough to overcome the plain meaning of a well-understood English word. > > In my view, cession means cession. There’s no factual answer–your last sentence points out that this is a “view.” I’m expressing my view, you yours. This issue has never been definitively settled legally. We’re _speculating_ here, unless you have claim that you have definitive legal proof and I’m somehow running afoul of it? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421/211 "2016-05-12T17:57:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Let’s look at the problem the other way around: > > What would it take (politically; I know there’s no way around securing their consent constitutionally) to get Virginia and Maryland to let go of the counties of the Washington Metropolitan Area and cede them to the new State of Columbia? > > There’s gotta be **something.** I can’t imagine anything that we _could_ offer, because those are the richest, highest tax base, fastest growing counties of those respective states. If you were offering to take up western Maryland or southwest Virginia you might be able to come to some agreement, but I can’t fathom any constitutionally valid things we could offer to Virginia or Maryland that would be better for them than keeping those counties that surround DC. Theoretically maybe if you offered Virginia and Maryland perpetual grants from the Federal government, equal to some share of their GDP, in an amount \> than the tax revenues they could enjoy from the ceded counties, but again Congress can’t make that deal. Any law Congress writes a future Congress can unwrite, and the other 48 states (or 36 of them anyway) wouldn’t sign on to making a constitutional change to make said arrangement permanent. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421/212 "2016-05-12T18:27:00Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > There’s no factual answer–your last sentence points out that this is a “view.” I’m expressing my view, you yours. This issue has never been definitively settled legally. We’re _speculating_ here, unless you have claim that you have definitive legal proof and I’m somehow running afoul of it? But you’re speculating that “cession” does not mean “cession.” You’re literally saying that the words in the Constitution don’t mean what they mean. How is that even a defendable assertion? I might as well argue that “Congress” when used in the Constitution doesn’t mean a legislative body, it means two people fornicating. “All legislative power herein granted shall be vested in people in the process of sexual intercourse…” ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421/213 "2016-05-12T20:43:44Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > But you’re speculating that “cession” does not mean “cession.” You’re literally saying that the words in the Constitution don’t mean what they mean. How is that even a defendable assertion? > > I might as well argue that “Congress” when used in the Constitution doesn’t mean a legislative body, it means two people fornicating. “All legislative power herein granted shall be vested in people in the process of sexual intercourse…” You’re arguing “cession” implies some irrevocability or permanency. The term “retrocession” has been used in reference to giving Virginia control of its land, which makes it obvious a cession in this context is a process that can be undone. Further there is no precise meaning of “cession”, does it mean giving up territory permanently? Or just right of control? If the latter then there is no redrawing of any state borders by a retrocession, just a relinquishment of Federal right of control–which the State has no right to veto. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421/214 "2016-05-12T22:15:36Z")
The retrocession to Virginia was not done without Virginia’s consent. I have no idea why this is an argument for why retrocession can be done without Maryland’s consent. This sounds like gibberish. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421/215 "2016-05-12T22:32:21Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > You’re arguing “cession” implies some irrevocability or permanency. The term “retrocession” has been used in reference to giving Virginia control of its land, which makes it obvious a cession in this context is a process that can be undone. Further there is no precise meaning of “cession”, does it mean giving up territory permanently? Or just right of control? If the latter then there is no redrawing of any state borders by a retrocession, just a relinquishment of Federal right of control–which the State has no right to veto. If you sell me something, and I resell it to you, that doesn’t mean that your sale to me wasn’t a permanent state of affairs when that transaction was conducted. As far as the plain English definition of cession: > **[Cession](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cession)** > > The act of cession is the assignment of property to another entity. In international law it commonly refers to land transferred by treaty. Ballentine's Law Dictionary defines cession as "a surrender; a giving up; a relinquishment of jurisdiction by a board in favor of another agency." In contrast with annexation, where property is forcibly seized, cession is voluntary or at least apparently so. > In 1790, the U.S. states of Maryland and Virginia both ceded land to create the District of Colum... [http://thelawdictionary.org/cession/](http://thelawdictionary.org/cession/) > **[Cession](https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/cession)** > > Definition of Cession in the Legal Dictionary by The Free Dictionary Do you see anything in those definitions that imply a temporary state of affairs, as though a cession is some type of loan? My stance is that DC is the Federal district. If the Federal Government wants to shrink the Federal district, it has to determine a disposition for the remainder of DC. It doesn’t automatically go anywhere, no more than if the Federal Government decided to abandon its claim to the Louisiana Territory would Iowa suddenly be part of France. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421.md?page=10)