# D.C. Statehood **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 16, 2016, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421 "2016-04-16T22:40:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421/121 "2016-04-26T17:40:05Z")
Right, size doesn’t matter. You have successfully rebutted the weakest argument. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421/122 "2016-04-26T19:33:39Z")
I’m not aware of any strong arguments, so I have to start somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421/123 "2016-04-26T21:25:18Z")
There should be only one argument: Are these citizens of the US that don’t have representation? If yes, then give them representation. DC isn’t Guam, isn’t Puerto Rico, isn’t a protectorate of the US. It is a part of our country since the beginning and only doesn’t have representation because the capital requires special protection from being unduly influenced by states. And now, the only reason why it doesn’t is because one party cares more about itself than representing Americans ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421/124 "2016-04-26T21:38:34Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > There should be only one argument: Are these citizens of the US that don’t have representation? If yes, then give them representation OK. Why should it be a state, though? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421/125 "2016-04-26T22:21:49Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Given that Vatqican City and Lichtenstein can be countries with lower population and area than DC, I don’t see that DC is too small to be a state. > > But if we’re going to forcibly merge DC into Maryland, because its too small to allow it to have 2 senators, perhaps we should even things out by merging Vermont with New Hampshire and Wyoming with Montana, and I’ve never been able to remember which one is which anyway. > > While we’re at it, we could also merge North and South Dakota, and revert Alaska to territory status (they don’t seem too keen on the Federal government up there anyway), so that Delaware is the smallest state at just under 1 million. You do realize that the states have constitutions and rights of their own? These states can work to amend the US Constitution if the issue is important. Or find a judge to reinterpret a few words. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421/126 "2016-04-26T23:38:24Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > OK. Why should it be a state, though? Because states are the only sub-Federal political entities that have equal representation in the national legislature and also exercise the sovereign powers that the 10th Amendment provides to either the states or the people. DC residents currently don’t enjoy those rights/privileges, while 320 million other Americans do. Why shouldn’t the people of DC enjoy the same fruits of a representative democracy as everyone else in the country? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421/127 "2016-04-27T00:09:53Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Because states are the only sub-Federal political entities that have equal representation in the national legislature and also exercise the sovereign powers that the 10th Amendment provides to either the states or the people. DC residents currently don’t enjoy those rights/privileges, while 320 million other Americans do. > > Why shouldn’t the people of DC enjoy the same fruits of a representative democracy as everyone else in the country? You’ve convinced me, retrocession now! ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421/128 "2016-04-27T00:15:41Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > You’ve convinced me, retrocession now! You’re proposing a solution that neither of the interested parties want. If you were a judge and a couple filed for divorce, would you rule that they must have another wedding? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421/129 "2016-04-27T00:23:00Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You’re proposing a solution that neither of the interested parties want. If you were a judge and a couple filed for divorce, would you rule that they must have another wedding? Neither of the interested parties? There’s only 2 parties involved here? There’s 3, actually, the rest of the US. Why should I be OK with my own political power being diluted just because DC and Maryland can’t seem to get along? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421/130 "2016-04-27T01:08:10Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Because states are the only sub-Federal political entities that have equal representation in the national legislature and also exercise the sovereign powers that the 10th Amendment provides to either the states or the people. DC residents currently don’t enjoy those rights/privileges, while 320 million other Americans do. > > Why shouldn’t the people of DC enjoy the same fruits of a representative democracy as everyone else in the country? Right. As it stands, the safe money is on that any other solution to giving the residents of DC-as-it-exists the fullness of a representation _ **specifically sitting on behalf of the DC-as-it-exists polity** _ while continuing its existence but without vesting its political apparatus with autonomous sovereignty independent of Congress, requires a constitutional amendment. As to Prof. Viet Dinh’s testimony in the hearing transcript **mandmonk28** linked, he brings up the earlier-mentioned concept, which applied during the period before the federal administration was fully installed in DC, of not retroceding but instead allowing the residents of the District the legal fiction of being constituents of the Maryland _congressional delegation_. Reestablishing the Residence Act today would mean, based on current apportionment, adding a ninth Representative to Maryland’s bench in the House. Its advantage is the people get their vote for Congress without having to have their local polity demoted to a mere county of Maryland. BUT it would create some challenges for both the residents of the District AND the state as well as for their respective political establishments and the federal as well: 1. It would make the at-large population of Maryland be 650,000 persons greater _exclusively when electing Senators_ vs. when voting for every other statewide office, a nearly 11% difference, from an urban community equal in size to Baltimore City. This alteration in the electoral base is one of the major reasons the Maryland political/business classes, be they rurals, suburbans, or Baltimoreans, do NOT want retrocession in general, and the sitting senators would not be the exception. 2. _Under the Viet Dihn proposal_, if the DC population is decreed to be apportioned to the Maryland constituency in the House… what happens when redistricting comes around? Could an Act of Congress mandate that the (N)th District of Maryland will always and forever have to include exactly what’s within the borders of the District of Columbia? Or else does the Maryland Assembly get required to have the DC Council sit when a redistricting decision is made that cuts into the DC border or extends beyond it? Because all that would potentially screw up one-man-one-vote rules on district size, and/or interfere with the Maryland Assembly’s constitutionally recognized sovereign power to legislate on \*how \*they redistrict. This _would_ be a serious concern for those in DC: As it stands today, the more densely populated sections of Maryland are a display of some [truly stupefying](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryland's_3rd_congressional_district#/media/File:Maryland_US_Congressional_District_3_%28since_2013%29.tif) gerrymandering geometrics ([they’re supposed to be working on doing something about that](http://governor.maryland.gov/redistricting-reform/)). Oh what they could do to the Capital’s voters… ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421/131 "2016-04-27T01:23:57Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Because states are the only sub-Federal political entities that have equal representation in the national legislature and also exercise the sovereign powers that the 10th Amendment provides to either the states or the people. DC residents currently don’t enjoy those rights/privileges, while 320 million other Americans do. > > Why shouldn’t the people of DC enjoy the same fruits of a representative democracy as everyone else in the country? Because it’s not a state? And people can choose to live in a non state portion of the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421/132 "2016-04-27T01:34:11Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Because it’s not a state? And people can choose to live in a non state portion of the United States. How do you know they can choose? How do you know what all the factors are involved in that choice? Why do you think it is just to make people choose between living in a place they can afford/have work and living in a place where they can have democratic representation in the government? It’s a phantom choice, and one that no American should be required to make. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421/133 "2016-04-27T01:35:26Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Neither of the interested parties? There’s only 2 parties involved here? > > There’s 3, actually, the rest of the US. Why should I be OK with my own political power being diluted just because DC and Maryland can’t seem to get along? While the literal text of Article 4 may not precisely apply, I think it’s pretty clear from the spirit of the provision that 49 states cannot force retrocession. That being the case, I think it’s fair to say that the views of the two parties - DC and Maryland - is of extreme importance. The fact that your suggesting a forced merger despite that one of those parties, DC, wouldn’t even have a vote in Congress to oppose such a bill, not only highlights the absurdity of the current situation, but is, to use a legal term, total crap. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421/134 "2016-04-27T01:39:52Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Because it’s not a state? What is this, a showcase of circular reasoning? “You can’t argue that Hillary Clinton should be President, because she is not now the President!” If I say DC ought to be a state, responding that DC is not a state is a useless comment. > [@](#): > > And people can choose to live in a non state portion of the United States. Do you think people in DC should be able to own a gun? For the most part, DC residents could not legally do so for a long time. But if they wanted a gun, they could just move somewhere else, right? And if someone wants to concealed carry in DC, surely you agree that such people can simply concealed carry somewhere else, right? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421/135 "2016-04-27T03:31:38Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > What is this, a showcase of circular reasoning? “You can’t argue that Hillary Clinton should be President, because she is not now the President!” If I say DC ought to be a state, responding that DC is not a state is a useless comment. > > Do you think people in DC should be able to own a gun? For the most part, DC residents could not legally do so for a long time. But if they wanted a gun, they could just move somewhere else, right? And if someone wants to concealed carry in DC, surely you agree that such people can simply concealed carry somewhere else, right? I’m in favor of more stars on the flag so I’m not opposed to expansion. But I agree that the seat of the federal government should not be a state. If people choose to live there that’s on them. I don’t lose any sleep over California and Wyoming having disproportionate as a function of state population representation in the senate. Why? I recognize the necessity of those historic compromises in order to form a union of states to begin with. Own a gun? I don’t think Congress has that power to completely disarm a populace regardless of the populace residing in a state or a territory. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421/136 "2016-04-27T13:07:14Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > But I agree that the seat of the federal government should not be a state. Why? Should the people of London or Paris not be full citizens of their countries because they live in a capital? What is the principle that you agree with that people living in a capital city aren’t necessary equal to people living outside of a capital city? > [@](#): > > Own a gun? I don’t think Congress has that power to completely disarm a populace regardless of the populace residing in a state or a territory. For something like forty years, it was basically impossible for the average person in DC to own a handgun. That was overturned by a court case in the last several years. So, what I’m talking about has actually happened: it was pretty much impossible to own a pistol in DC, with exceptions only for police and security guards. So, on the basis that this is not a hypothetical question: would you tell the people of DC who wanted to own a handgun, and sued the government, that they should just move to Virginia if they wanted a gun? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421/137 "2016-04-27T15:24:06Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > OK. Why should it be a state, though? I’m fine with a compromise solution where DC doesn’t become an official state but has all the representation of a state. Because what is a state except a geographic boundary where people within are given the right to govern themselves according to the Constitution? If you break it down, a state is nothing more than a group of people who want to control their immediate surroundings. We should not deny that to the citizens of DC. Its laughable and undemocratic to have Congressmen from other states deciding what is ok for the people in DC when that same thing doesn’t happen anywhere else. The city council of DC should not have to answer to the voters of Nome, Alaska ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421/138 "2016-04-27T19:41:46Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’m not aware of any strong arguments, so I have to start somewhere. The real world problem that it’s establishement is part of the constitution isn’t a strong argument? The fact that folding it mostly back in to Maryland would be a million times easier way to give most DCers representation isn’t a strong argument? Is perhaps the massive amount of extra public spending for plopping a state level government on top of one city meaningful to you? Or must “strong arguments” necessarily come from some unflinching moral principle? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421/139 "2016-04-27T19:46:07Z")
There wouldn’t need to be any additional layer of government, just some organizational changes and retitling. Of all possible objections, this is the least. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421/140 "2016-04-27T19:58:03Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > There wouldn’t need to be any additional layer of government, just some organizational changes and retitling. Of all possible objections, this is the least. That can not be assumed. You’re saying that the mayor will just be the governor? That the governor will sit in on bylaw debates? There won’t be a municipal layer of government anymore and zero bureaucracy bloat? No way is that a realistic prediction. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-c-statehood/752421.md?page=8)