# D & D got woke and that's good because you should have all been playing that way (or not if you didn't prefer)) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** rpg-dnd-wargames\ **Created:** [February 17, 2021, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114 "2021-02-17T10:36:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2021, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/181 "2021-02-20T19:41:12Z")
Are ya sure? “I swear by the chalupa that I shall bring these fiends to justice! Fear the sound of my Taco Bell!” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2021, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/182 "2021-02-20T19:47:11Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Was that from 1e Deities & Demigods? I could have sworn it went into more detail than that. It does — because, as you said, it needs to spell out why demigods top out at granting 5th-level magics, and how lesser gods differ from greater gods — but the bit there still strikes me as the key part. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2021, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/183 "2021-02-20T19:49:11Z")
PHB also says that “Clerical spells, including druidic, are bestowed by the gods” before saying that lower level ones are granted through meditation and prayer. So the prayer is a way to tap into the god’s power but still requires a god to function. It’s more about answering how a god can get through the day without their text messages blowing up rather than suggesting that clerics don’t really need gods to cast _Bless_. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2021, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/184 "2021-02-20T19:54:44Z")
And, for what it’s worth either way, the 1e DMG elaborates: “It is then assumed that prior to becoming a first level cleric, the player character received a course of instruction, served a novitiate, and has thoroughly read and committed to memory the teachings of and prayers to his or her chosen deity, so that the character is dedicated to this deity and is able to perform as a cleric thereof. _It is this background which enables the cleric character to use first level spells_. Furthermore, continued service and activity on behalf of the player character’s deity empower him or her to use second level spells as well, but thereafter another agency must be called upon.” (The italics there aren’t mine; they’re just in the original text, is all.) ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2021, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/185 "2021-02-20T19:58:34Z")
Yeah, I’d say that “prayers of a chosen deity” and “dedicated to this deity” reinforces the need for a patron god. You have your god, spend a lot of time reading its divine texts and learning the doctrine and all that and get access to first level spells opened up to you. No casting first level spells just because you’re a great guy or believe strongly in the power of niceness. Not that this should be any surprise since Gygax obviously wanted clerics and paladins to have patron deities since they’re based on real world Christian orders of knights or priests. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2021, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/186 "2021-02-20T20:05:21Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Yeah, I’d say that “prayers of a chosen deity” and “dedicated to this deity” reinforces the need for a patron god. You have your god, spend a lot of time reading its divine texts and learning the doctrine and all that and get access to first level spells opened up to you. No casting first level spells just because you’re a great guy or believe strongly in the power of niceness. That’s 2e. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2021, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/187 "2021-02-20T20:05:33Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > I happily impose a “Divine casters need to represent a deity” rule in my campaigns. No one has complained yet. My favorite cleric I ever played was a hideously deformed half-orc who, kidnapped by a Gruumsh cultist and prepped for dedication to the one-eyed god, spontaneously invented a trickster deity to worship. He knew from the beginning that his Raven god was fictional, but there’s no truer birth for a trickster-god than a desperate mortal’s lie. (He later invented an ancient secret society to influence political affairs, and a new mythic origin for another PC’s evil sentient sword, in an effort to set the sword on a redemption arc.) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2021, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/188 "2021-02-20T20:13:04Z")
Actually there is the Anti-paladin, and the Inquisitor (CE etc). And Paladins are not limited to LG deities, there are paladins of several NG and LN deities. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2021, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/189 "2021-02-20T20:16:51Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > But if Lollth has a holy order of spiked chain wielding knights who ride spiders into battle to smite her enemies, why can’t they be Paladins too? Because the term Paladin refers to a group of _Lawful Good_ holy warriors. You want other holy warriors , there are other names. In fact there was a whole dragon magazine article about it. It’s like saying “In my world, the sun sets in the East and rises in the West”. _East_ means where the sunrises. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2021, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/190 "2021-02-20T20:17:36Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Maybe they should have left the paladin alone and created an entirely new class for the evil variant. They did, it is called the Anti-paladin. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2021, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/191 "2021-02-20T20:19:27Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I think you guys are getting Paladins all wrong. According to 5e rules,… Were we necessarily talking 5e? I was mostly talking 3.5 and Pathfinder, along with AD&D. > [@Jophiel](#): > > It also has the side effect that a cleric of a demigod is locked out of high level clerical magic. True, but the lower level of your deity, the higher chance of direct deific intervention, so there’s that. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2021, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/192 "2021-02-20T20:24:08Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Because the term Paladin refers to a group of _Lawful Good_ holy warriors You are objectively incorrect here. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2021, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/193 "2021-02-20T20:33:59Z")
No, I am not at all wrong. That is exactly what _Paladin_ means, per Gygax. Now sure, one edition, 5th have changed that around, due to whinging. However, since it is true for OD&D, 1st ED, 2nd ED, 3rd ed, 3.5, and Pathfinder, and all the writings of Gygax, i can state that is how it is supposed to be. Dont assume that when people are talking D&D, they are only talking one edition. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2021, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/194 "2021-02-20T20:44:33Z")
They still have that kind of paladin. They also have other kinds. More options is better, right? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2021, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/195 "2021-02-20T20:45:26Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > PHB also says that “Clerical spells, including druidic, are bestowed by the gods” before saying that lower level ones are granted through meditation and prayer. So the prayer is a way to tap into the god’s power but still requires a god to function. It’s more about answering how a god can get through the day without their text messages blowing up rather than suggesting that clerics don’t really need gods to cast _Bless_. One more wrinkle from the text, though: if a deity does the silver-cord bit to manifest a material form on another plane, and said form is _destroyed_, then said deity will be weakened and go through a period of dormancy for days or weeks or a month — during which time clerics of that deity will find it impossible “to acquire or recover any spells of third level or higher”. Which is a weird corner case, but kind of fits together if it’s supposed to be mere faith powering those first-level and second-level spells: it’s not just that sixth-level and seventh-level spells suddenly go offline when a patron deity is out of the picture; it’s also that the deity’s supernatural minions unsurprisingly lose their ability to grant third-level and fourth-level stuff during that period — and yet the first-level and second-level spellcasting is meant to just keep motoring along. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2021, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/196 "2021-02-20T20:52:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, I am not at all wrong. That is exactly what _Paladin_ means, per Gygax. Gygax is dead, man, and he never trademarked the term anyway. But even if he did, us CG types wouldn’t give a shit :). When you try to tell us what a word “refers to,” be aware that some of us have played for a lot longer than you and know about the history of the word _in Dungeons and Dragons_ since AD&D, and know that your unqualified present tense usage is, as I said, “objectively incorrect.” If you mean, “In first edition, Paladin refers to a group of _Lawful Good_ holy warriors,” you’re welcome to clarify; then you’ll no longer be objectively incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2021, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/197 "2021-02-20T20:54:32Z")
As long as only the LG version is named a “Paladin” I have no objections at all to all varieties of holy warriors, in fact i enjoyed playing several dragon magazine variants. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2021, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/198 "2021-02-20T20:56:01Z")
You most certainly havent played longer than I have, I have played since 1975. I met Gygax and played a game with Arneson. I wrote early 3pp and other stuff. It’s not only 1st, it is also 2nd, 3rd, 3.5 and PF. I think 4th but I am not sure. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2021, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/199 "2021-02-20T21:00:32Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > As long as only the LG version is named a “Paladin” I have no objections at all to all varieties of holy warriors, in fact i enjoyed playing several dragon magazine variants. That’s totally fine if you have objections. I personally can’t stand arugula. Our objections are equally relevant to what the word “paladin” means in Dungeons and Dragons. > [@DrDeth](#): > > You most certainly havent played longer than I have, I have played since 1975. On this other point, however, it is I, not you, who is objectively incorrect, and I apologize for my error. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2021, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/200 "2021-02-20T21:01:55Z")
I guess you and I will never get to play together. I assume you’re as mortified as I am. Also, Gygax was an asshole. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114.md?page=11)