# D & D got woke and that's good because you should have all been playing that way (or not if you didn't prefer)) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** rpg-dnd-wargames\ **Created:** [February 17, 2021, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114 "2021-02-17T10:36:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2021, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/301 "2021-02-27T14:03:42Z")
Pretend isn’t always just pretend. I won’t play with people who gleefully enact horrific acts in game and take pleasure in playing out racist fantasies, for example. Sure, pretending to burn a cross in D&D isn’t the same thing as actually burning a cross. But I will nonetheless judge you, taking the circumstances of the game and the context of the players into account. “It’s just pretend” is not a free pass for everything. There are limits. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2021, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/302 "2021-02-27T14:10:20Z")
Sure, and i totally agree with you. In fact, the one time I dm’d, i wouldn’t let a player play an evil character, because i didn’t want to participate in that game. That being said, the traditional “hack the bad races” game is more like Welcome, adventurers, our town has been troubled by nearby orcs who are raiding us and killing and raping and stealing and destroying. Can you help us? Followed by the adventurers going to the orcs caves and killing them and maybe destroying the cave so the ones who fled don’t return. It’s not typically about adventurers seeking out orcs in the middle of nowhere and torturing them. The first is shallow and arguably encourages racist and nationalistic feelings. Or it may be a safe way to dispel them. I’m not a psychologist. The latter is a game i want no part of on many levels. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2021, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/303 "2021-02-27T16:17:40Z")
From Burlew/OotS: > [@](#): > > Fantasy literature is ONLY worthwhile for what it can tell us about the real world; everything else is petty escapism. So if I can make even one person think about how we treat people of other races (or religions, or creeds, or what have you) by using the analogy of Redcloak, then it will have been time well spent on my part. I’m sure he’s made at least one person think about it so mission accomplished. I’m going to admit that I never once thought “Wow, Redcloak is really making me think about real world things” aside from “Look at this comic, making callouts to the ancient ‘killing goblin babies’ RPG debates…” Which, yeah, I used to read the Goblin Baby debate in old issues of _Dragon_ back in the 80s and it’s older than that in game stores and basements, just didn’t have a national outlet to share it in. > [@Pleonast](#): > > Don’t tell me what something is worth to me. When I’m in the mood for petty escapism, there’s no substitute for it. Something to be said for that. I’m sure some difference of opinion comes from whether you lean more towards Beer & Pretzels D&D or if you think of your gaming as Very Important Things. There’s a good deal of overlaps and B&P style isn’t “Hurr I roll dice n kill the things” and VIP doesn’t require you to wear elf ears and adopt a thespian accent at the table, but a lot of people are playing the game for friendship and laughs for a few hours, brought together by some plausible-enough make believe and random number generation. They’re not trying to create deep multifaceted worlds of moral complexity, much less take home important lessons about our own world. I’ve done both and these days lean more towards B&P for reasons ranging from “Less leisure time to spend futzing around” to the simple truth that most 2Deep4u campaigns are pretty awful because the people making/running/playing them don’t really have the chops. I’m not denying that good campaigns of that nature exist, just saying that (in my experience) they’re 95% bad Salvatore fanfic acting circles and I don’t have the enthusiasm to spend hunting for a good one. Almost anyone of basic competence can pull together “Orcs be bustin’ up our shit, go stop it” and, building off that, a lot of people can put together an enjoyable heroic campaign of “You’re the good guys, there’s some bad guys; go save the world”. And that’s cool with me. That’s what I want on a Thursday night after putting in my eight hours. I don’t need to follow up the show with a one hour roundtable on the real-life racial-economic lessons of Rrgrwath the Bloodthirsty and his Hobgoblin Slave Pits. Petty Escapism? Awesome. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2021, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/304 "2021-02-27T17:15:57Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > That’s what I want on a Thursday night after putting in my eight hours. I don’t need to follow up the show with a one hour roundtable on the real-life racial-economic lessons of Rrgrwath the Bloodthirsty and his Hobgoblin Slave Pits. Petty Escapism? I love that you say you don’t want this, as post 303 in a thread on this topic! ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2021, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/305 "2021-02-27T17:22:49Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > That’s rather condescending. Don’t tell me what something is worth to me. When I’m in the mood for petty escapism, there’s no substitute for it. I pretty much consider the whole of D&D to be petty escapism. It’s a game. ---
**Author:** ![smilingbandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@smilingbandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smilingbandit)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2021, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/306 "2021-02-27T17:40:13Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > > [@smilingbandit](#): > > > > In another context I would agree _except_ that Drow were never coded as African-American > > This isn’t really relevant. It is associated red with the general cultural pattern of white/light is good and black/dark is evil. It’s a pattern that affects everyone’s psychology and colors our perception of white people and black people, even when there are no other African-American-related cultural traits involved. The “dark-skinned ones are all evil” will and does mix in to our toxic cultural race stew and as will all aspects of things that touch in race we need to be vigilant about it. The “well, actually, it’s not really about African-Americans” explaining doesn’t change that. Trying to change how color is used to communicate ideas in literature or fiction is an… ambitious idea. I also highly question your assertion that it affects our perception of human beings as opposed to literary characters or situation.s I’m also unimpressed that you dismissed my argument by handwaving it as “Well, Actually.” This is not Twitter ; I made a relevant point and you have not actually stated any evidence or argument against it. That you don’t like the point is not relevant. The Drow are just a poor example for how you wish to use it; Contrarily, orcs and goblins have often been to used with distinctively racist overtimes. Orcs, for example, are often depicted as sub-humans but may be implicitly identified with a non-white ethnic group. Goblins have sometimes been combined with anti-Semitic imagery in a way that makes me very uncomfortable. This does not mean they are universally depicted that way: Warhammer 40K orcs were inspired by British football hooligans, for example. There are things I dislike about the Drow are presented, although a full explanation would take a long time. But their origins in DnD (excluding other fantasy depictions because I _HATE_ what Pathfinder did as it’s more ethically questionable) they were both not universally evil, and numerically more oppressed by their leadership than oppressing others. They were a people in need of aid, not monsters to be killed, and at the same time were capable of great feats of craftsmanship beyond. They weren’t depicted as subhuman in any way, and less-capable writers just focused on the evil and completely ignored everything that wasn’t “Cool”. Which is basically the long way of me seeing I agree with the OP, more or less. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2021, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/307 "2021-02-27T17:50:30Z")
> [@smilingbandit](#): > > Trying to change how color is used to communicate ideas in literature or fiction is an… ambitious idea. “Dark-skinned versions aren’t uniformly evil” is a very easy place to start. The system has in fact started down that path already. So, taking a small step isn’t all that ambitious. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2021, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/308 "2021-02-27T17:58:09Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I pulled out some old AD&D source books I have, and i agree that it’s unfortunate that all the PCs look like white people,… Dwarves are swarthy too. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2021, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/309 "2021-02-27T18:38:31Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I love that you say you don’t want this, as post 303 in a thread on this topic! Well, my tabletop gaming time is limited by various factors. My internet babbling time is much more fluid 😃 ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2021, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/310 "2021-02-27T18:54:52Z")
Not in this particular book. (AD&D 2nd edition Player’s Handbook, copyright 1989) There aren’t all that many pictures, but there are two that I think are dwarves. One looks like a tanned Scotsman, and the other looks like a pale Scandinavian, to my best guess. The orcs have a bit of a green cast, and are darker. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2021, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/311 "2021-02-27T19:38:24Z")
1e orcs were pale and piggish. Drow never looked African, just dark skinned. Problem with D&D is it was started by all white people who read older Fantasy Books that were pretty close to all white. Heavily influenced by Norse & Greek mythology and so again, almost all white. It was less racist and more just ignorant/isolated from non-white culture. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2021, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/312 "2021-02-27T20:28:38Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Drow never looked African, just dark skinned Sure, but “dark-skinned” is a defining trait for African in our culture. There’s a reason why more work goes to lighter-skinned Black actors or photos of criminals get manipulated in the media to look darker and not with changing their nose/mouth shape. Or, you know, why we refer to African-Americans as “Black”. It’s especially weird when they exist in a world where they’re the only canonical dark skinned PC race and in a book full of white elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings and maybe the token Black human now and then. > [@What\_Exit](#): > > It was less racist and more just ignorant/isolated from non-white culture. That part I agree with. I don’t think Drow were devised to be “African-American stand-ins” or that Gygax (or whoever first created Drow) hated Black people. It was just tone deaf white Wisconsin nerds in the 70s and 80s and they never gave it a thought. Here and now though, it’s pretty cringey. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2021, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/313 "2021-02-27T21:03:28Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > But that doesn’t make killing orcs the same as burning crosses on your back yard. No, but tell me you’ve never seen someone do something in game that influenced your perception of them as a person? For example, I’ve noticed a pretty strong correlation between people who play sexist creeps at the table, and people who are sexist creeps in real life. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2021, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/314 "2021-02-27T21:28:25Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Sure, but “dark-skinned” is a defining trait for African in our culture. There’s a reason why more work goes to lighter-skinned Black actors or photos of criminals get manipulated in the media to look darker and not with changing their nose/mouth shape. But the reverse isn’t true: not all dark-skinned people are African. I have no idea what Pacific Islanders are treated like, but dark-skinned subcontinental people are not treated as Black here in America. I mean I obviously could be wrong, but it would be really stunning to me if there is a cultural tradition here in America of attributing to them all the negative and positive stereotypes of African Americans. Which isn’t to say that they don’t face their own problematic stereotypes. As for dark-skinned Drow, I was never reminded of human skin tones, since the few pictures I remember of them they were literally black, without any hint of ruddiness or brownness one would notice on a human of any background. But just calling them “dark elves” and having them have dark skin and be evil is bad enough, even if they aren’t otherwise a close analog to any humans. Because even if it doesn’t reinforce a way of thinking on a literal skin tone level, it does reinforce the tradition of “light = good” and “dark = bad” which we should shy away from. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2021, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/315 "2021-02-27T22:13:00Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > But the reverse isn’t true: not all dark-skinned people are African I don’t see how that’s supposed to matter. Pacific Islanders aren’t considered “Black” in America. African-Americans are. “Black” in US Culture means African-American. This has been true for a long, long time and certainly for far longer than D&D has been around. Stuff like “But there’s other dark-skinned people” and “But they don’t _really_ look African…” sounds like weird academic excuses to handwave away the fact that the PHB has one canonical dark-skinned race and they are literally color coded Black = Evil in the lore. And the only real runner up (half-orcs) aren’t a hell of a lot better. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2021, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/316 "2021-02-27T23:30:35Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Stuff like “But there’s other dark-skinned people” and “But they don’t _really_ look African…” sounds like weird academic excuses to handwave away the fact that the PHB has one canonical dark-skinned race and they are literally color coded Black = Evil in the lore. I’m not sure what part of my post implied that I don’t believe that we should shy away from supporting things that imply Black = Evil. Just that a dark skinned humanoid race _that doesn’t look at all like Africans_, even in skin tone, shouldn’t by default be a proxy for Africans. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2021, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/317 "2021-02-27T23:34:20Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I thought his analogy was obvious, if overstated. To be clear, I wasn’t trying to directly analogize “kicking real puppies” to “killing imaginary orcs.” I was suggesting there’s a continuum of behavior a person could engage in, in a private setting, for fun, that would color my impression of them. Definitely “kicking puppies” is at a different place on that continuum than “killing imaginary orcs”, and I apologize if my unclear writing suggested otherwise. But a person who slaughters orc babies as a way to role-play heroism? Not gonna think highly of that person. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/318 "2021-02-28T01:19:56Z")
nm … ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/319 "2021-02-28T01:31:47Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > 1e orcs were pale and piggish. Untrue on the “pale” part: > [@Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Monster Manual](#): > > Description: Orcs appear particularly disgusting because their coloration - brown or brownish green with a bluish sheen - highlights their pinkish snouts and ears. Their bristly hair is dark brown or black, sometimes with tan patches. Even their armor tends to be unattractive - dirty and often a bit rusty. Orcs favor unpleasant colors in general. Their garments are in tribal colors, as are shield devices or trim. Typical colors are blood red, rust red, mustard yellow, yellow green, moss green, greenish purple, and blackish brown. They live for 40 years. As a nasty little side note: > [@](#): > > Half-Orcs: As orcs will breed with anything, there are any number of unsavory mongrels with orcish blood, particularly orc-goblins, orc- hobgoblins, and orc-humans. Orcs cannot cross-breed with elves. Half-orcs tend to favor the orcish strain heavily, so such sorts are basically orcs although they can sometimes (10%) pass themselves off as true creatures of their other stock (goblins, hobgoblins, humans, etc.). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/320 "2021-02-28T01:37:40Z")
For some fun, here are a few others: > [@1e Monster Manual](#): > > Description: The hide of ogres varies from dull blackish-brown to dead yellow. Rare specimens are a sickly violet in color. > … > Description: Hill giants have tan to reddish brown skins, brown to black hair, and red-rimmed eyes. > … > Fire giants are very broad (about 6’ at the shoulders), looking almost like dwarves. Their skins are coal black, hair is flaming red or bright orange, and eyes are deep red. > … > Description: Goblins range from yellow through dull orange to brick red in skin color. > … > Description: The hairy hides of hobgoblins range from dark reddish-brown to gray black. > … > Description: The skin of bugbears is light yellow to yellow brown - typically dull yellow. But at least: > [@](#): > > Frost giants have dead white or ivory skin color, blue-white or yellow hair, and pale blue or yellow eyes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114.md?page=17)