# D & D got woke and that's good because you should have all been playing that way (or not if you didn't prefer)) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** rpg-dnd-wargames\ **Created:** [February 17, 2021, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114 "2021-02-17T10:36:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/341 "2021-02-28T15:59:10Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > This is a very typical response of someone brought up on a culture steeped in systematic institutional racism but who rarely faces the sharp end of the stick. It’s also a typical response from people who legitimately disagree with you. Sometimes that happens. [Edit] I just showed the picture to my wife and asked her thoughts. Aside from eye-rolling at the cheesecake, she had no “Wow, that’s racist” reactions. She is a minority from a culture with a long history of being stereotyped as primitives, savages, headhunters, whatever. Even for people who has long been on the sharp end of the stick, sometimes an orc is just seen as an orc. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/342 "2021-02-28T16:01:03Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Ans just like Weateen cultirentjiae skin hues Can you edit this to fix the typo? If you can’t, I will be happy to do it for you. (The edit window has been increased to 15 minutes, fyi.) Thanks for sending me what you intended to say. I’ve fixed the post. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/343 "2021-02-28T16:45:40Z")
Anyway, lots of you sounds like great DMs. If anyone is starting a campaign and looking for players, please consider inviting me. I have a cluttered schedule, and may not be available, but I’m probably interested if I AM available. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/344 "2021-02-28T17:11:19Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > In the modern D&D games I’ve encountered (generally in podcasts), races seem to be chosen more as a part of backstory and roleplaying, and less for mechanical reasons. > > I do not think podcasts are an accurate representation of the typical role playing game experience. You will find plenty of people who say they chose their race as part of a backstory and for role playing purposes. Personally, I’ve found that race in a game like D&D typically has very little impact on the game. If someone is playing a Fighter it doesn’t matter whether they’re a Dragonborn, Dwarf, or a Halfling. While I agree my perspective may be off due to primarily listening to podcast games, what you say here is what I was trying to say. Because race has little impact on the mechanics of the game, it seemed most of the players chose more based on what they want for their character rather than for the mechanics. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/345 "2021-02-28T17:13:50Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Anyway, lots of you sounds like great DMs. If anyone is starting a campaign and looking for players, please consider inviting me. I have a cluttered schedule, and may not be available, but I’m probably interested if I AM available. Time is an issue for you, time is an issue for me. But you’re not the first to note interest here. Maybe we should do a Play By Post campaign. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/346 "2021-02-28T17:14:39Z")
would that be a thread game. 🙃 ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/347 "2021-02-28T17:16:11Z")
A group of people I know on another BB were organizing a game, which might have been play-by-post, and might have been intermittent discord. But then the site owner killed the BB. 🙁 ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/348 "2021-02-28T17:21:00Z")
Yeah, a thread game - if there’s enough interest I could post a Recruitment thread ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/349 "2021-02-28T17:21:33Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > It’s also a typical response from people who legitimately disagree with you. I don’t doubt that you are offering your genuine opinion. What I would like to do is offer you the chance to reconsider how much weight to give to your opinion. Over my life, I have held opinions and reconsidered them many times, in the face of statements of people who have different perspectives. I’m still doing that. “I don’t see it” is a place to start, not a place to finish. It’s an opportunity to ask “Why don’t I see it?” and “How can I start seeing it?” and “Why do other people see it?” > [@Jophiel](#): > > I just showed the picture to my wife and asked her thoughts. Aside from eye-rolling at the cheesecake, she had no “Wow, that’s racist” reactions. She is a minority from a culture with a long history of being stereotyped as primitives, savages, headhunters, whatever. Even for people who has long been on the sharp end of the stick, sometimes an orc is just seen as an orc. Sure, this is a perfect example of why socio-cultural prejudices are so difficult to dislodge. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/350 "2021-02-28T18:04:41Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Sure, this is a perfect example of why socio-cultural prejudices are so difficult to dislodge. Or a perfect example of someone unable to realize that sometimes an orc is just an orc. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/351 "2021-02-28T18:28:10Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > sometimes an orc is just an orc. There is an infinite number of ways to depict an orc. Choices matter. And when you’re already in a conversation in which people are discussing change then “Let’s not change it because _I_ don’t see a problem” is the weak position. If you don’t see a problem, then let the people who do see the problem effect the change. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/352 "2021-02-28T18:28:40Z")
This is about Tolkien and the Lord of the Rings, not D&D, but I do think that LotR was the inspiration for early versions of D&D, and so I think this article is relevant: > **[When Tolkien depicted orcs in ‘Lord of the Rings’, was he being racist rather...](https://scroll.in/article/904869/when-tolkien-depicted-orcs-in-lord-of-the-rings-was-he-being-racist-rather-than-imaginative)** > > Recent accusations of racism are at odds with the values of friendship, altruism and courage exemplified in his books. The gist of it is that it’s complicated. Tolkien explicitly rejected racist ideology in important ways (both in real life and in his works) and the explicit values portrayed by the books are still largely admirable, but the racial prejudices of his era are implicit in the work, including his descriptions of orcs: > Yet, the orcs in _The Lord of the Rings_ undoubtedly have racial characteristics which are [problematic](http://dimitrafimi.com/revisiting-race-in-tolkiens-legendarium-constructing-cultures-and-ideologies-in-an-imaginary-world/): we never get a detailed description in the text, but recurring traits include slanted eyes and swarthy complexions. These elements sound straight out of Victorian anthropology, linking mental qualities and physique. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/353 "2021-02-28T18:33:24Z")
At the end of the day I still don’t have any problem with orcs being bad guys all the time. However, a significant number of people do have a problem with how they’re portrayed, and although I don’t agree with their conclusions their arguments are sound. i.e. I can follow along as they don’t seem crazy to me. Since it does offend a sizable portion of the D&D audience, more importantly a sizeable portion of WotC’s primary demographic, I can see why they’re making changes. And I can’t really find any grounds for objecting to the changes in how orcs are portrayed. Now when it comes to silly arguments that we need to change the name of the Barbarian class because it’s derogatory, no, I have no respect for those. Thankfully, at least for now, those folks are on the fringes. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/354 "2021-02-28T18:55:34Z")
Okay. I’m gonna try again. First, a caveat about my attempt: I know that when you think someone’s being defensive, telling them that you think they’re being defensive is about the worst way to get them to stop being defensive. Nevertheless, I’m gonna tell you, **Jophiel** , that that’s how it’s coming across to me. I could certainly be wrong; but how you’re arguing reminds me of how I argued against seeing racism in World of Warcraft or Tolkien, some years back. I loved these fantasies, and it was very hard not to take it personally when people suggested they included racist elements, and so I looked for ways to dismiss the claims. Hell, I’m still struggling not to engage in similar behavior with other things (e.g., the charges against Joss Whedon). It’s an ongoing thing. What I found was that, when I took a breath, stepped away, and tried to look at things with grace and fairness, I found myself saying, “There’s a lot of great stuff here, but yeah, there’s also some serious racism.” You of course might come to a different conclusion, but I guess I ask that you at least consider whether your love of D&D might make it more difficult for you to see racist elements in the hobby. Okay, to some specific arguments: **The Color Wheel** > [@](#): > > short of them being albino Morlocks or neon pink/cyan, they’re probably going to be darker than Euro-flesh because that’s just how the color wheel works. I took a walk in the Appalachian woods today. While I was standing by a mountain stream, I thought of what you said, and looked around me. Were most colors in nature darker than Euro-flesh, especially the woman in that picture? It turned out that this wasn’t close to true. From the pale green lichen, to the beige on the underside of a dead white oak leaf, to the grays and tans and creams and yellows and oranges and greens of the granite and rotten wood and mosses and and barks and sunlight dappling rocks through stream-water, there were myriad light colors around me. None of them would look like human skin; they would all be options for orc skin. Hell, I’m no painter, but I believe that artist could have mixed a blob of white paint into his orc-skin paint and achieved a lighter tone. It may be strictly true that, if you put all the Pantone swatches on a wall and threw a dart, you’d likelier get a darker color than that lady’s skin. But that’s not how the artist chooses a color. The choice is deliberate; and there are plenty of colors the artist could have chosen. The choice of dark skin for the savage brutes was an intentional choice. **Euro-Centrism** > [@](#): > > Fantasy art is very Eurocentric so it wasn’t by happenstance that the woman is white. That also means that most antagonists are going to fall darker than her on the spectrum. That doesn’t follow at all. The orcs could have been just as white as her. She’s not like Nordic pale; the orcs could have been. In the shallowest meaning of “Eurocentric”–that the artist only draws pale skin–you’d expect the orcs also to be pale. But there’s a more complex meaning of Eurocentrism: for centuries, European artists have distinguished moral purity with lightness of skin tone, with dark skin tones indicating sin or savagery. Eurocentrism and racism go hand in hand. I thought it’d be interesting to see how this artist paints other nonhumans. So I found his [decidedly NSFW gallery](https://clydecaldwell.com/). (That link takes you to his SFW main page; click through to the gallery, but beware boobies). It turns out that when he paints elves, [they’re white](https://clydecaldwell.com/gallery/dragon-of-desolation/). [Bikini-clad bird-ladies are white](https://clydecaldwell.com/gallery/against-the-tide/). [Nekkid fairy ladies are white](https://clydecaldwell.com/gallery/quest-for-the-well-of-souls/). [Halflings are white](https://clydecaldwell.com/gallery/shadow-castle/). It turns out he can figure out how to make non-dark skin tones for nonhumans, as long as they’re not supposed to be brutish savages. This tradition–of depicting civilized individuals as fair-skinned, and brutish savages as dark-skinned–is well-established, and hardly controversial. As much as you may love D&D, as much as I do, it’s hardly a stretch to see that a game created by a couple of midwestern White dudes who grew up in the forties and fifties might be influenced by the white supremacist ideas of their times, and that those ideas may have percolated through the fantasy art and books they inspired over the next several decades. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/355 "2021-02-28T19:02:32Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > We’re not talking naturalistic skin tone, but I see that picture as well within the tradition of American racist mythology. Why is everything racist racist racist? I met Gygax, played with Arneson once, and I have carried on a correspondence with many of the originals. Not once did i even get a whiff of racism. Remember what happened to the boy that called _wolf._ ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/356 "2021-02-28T19:05:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Why is everything racist racist racist? Because for most of our culture’s history, and to a certain extent to this day, our culture was a white supremacist one. And this means that the influence of white supremacy and racism is still there, throughout our culture. Not always maliciously, not always intentionally, but still there. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/357 "2021-02-28T19:06:03Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > There is an infinite number of ways to depict an orc. Not if you are starting from the source material. Orc were swarthy. Now, note that Hobbits, the big heroes of the books, were noted as having brown skin. Strider was noted as having a dark complexion. Ents were brown. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/358 "2021-02-28T19:09:16Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Because for most of our culture’s history, and to a certain extent to this day, our culture was a white supremacist one. So? This reminds me of that guy Cecil debunked, that was always seeing dirty pictures in ice cubes, etc. Sometimes a ice cube is just a ice cube. In fact it _usually_ is. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/359 "2021-02-28T19:10:39Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > This is about Tolkien and the Lord of the Rings, not D&D, but I do think that LotR was the inspiration for early versions of D&D D&D takes from Tolkien, among other sources, but its orcs aren’t really Tolkien orcs. More like just swiping the name for some of their cannon fodder low-xp bad guys. > [@Acsenray](#): > > There is an infinite number of ways to depict an orc Not when making art for TSR in the early 80s there wasn’t. > [@Acsenray](#): > > then “Let’s not change it because _I_ don’t see a problem” is the weak position. No, the weak position is “Your positions don’t count if they don’t agree with mine 'cause that just means you’re not as woke as I am or else you’d agree. Any disagreement is just systemic racism in your brain and even if you’re a supposedly affected minority who isn’t upset, it can only be because you were brainwashed to not understand on my higher level.” ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/360 "2021-02-28T19:11:08Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Not if you are starting from the source material. Orc were swarthy. Exactly. The pale skinned elves, when corrupted by pure evil, became “swarthy”. Nothing to see here, folks- no racism at all, no siree [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114.md?page=19)