# D & D got woke and that's good because you should have all been playing that way (or not if you didn't prefer)) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** rpg-dnd-wargames\ **Created:** [February 17, 2021, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114 "2021-02-17T10:36:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/361 "2021-02-28T19:11:40Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Why is everything racist racist racist? Because history sucks. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/362 "2021-02-28T19:12:58Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > You of course might come to a different conclusion, but I guess I ask that you at least consider whether your love of D&D might make it more difficult for you to see racist elements in the hobby. Amusingly, I spent a number of keystrokes arguing about how Drow were problematic as basically the only canonical dark-skinned PC race in the PHB. I’m not unable to see issues in the hobby. I’m not just on board your orc train in this example. > [@Babale](#): > > Exactly. The pale skinned elves, when corrupted by pure evil, became “swarthy”. Nothing to see here, folks- no racism at all, no siree And this was part of my issue with Drow as a PC race. They’re literally color-coded Black = Evil in the game lore. Orcs aren’t. Orcs in D&D aren’t fallen elves, they’re just orcs. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/363 "2021-02-28T19:14:16Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > I’m not just on board your orc train in this example. For the record, my main issue with Always Evil (due to inherent orciness) Orcs isn’t racism, it’s that this is shitty storytelling and world building. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/364 "2021-02-28T19:17:47Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > And this was part of my issue with Drow as a PC race. They’re literally color-coded Black = Evil in the game lore. Orcs aren’t. Orcs in D&D aren’t fallen elves, they’re just orcs. Right, but as DrDeth pointed out dnd orcs look the way they do because they were cribbed from Tolkien. So the answer to “why are dnd orcs dark” is “because Tolkien” and the answer to “wh are Tolkien orcs dark” is “because they are evil elves and dark = evil” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/365 "2021-02-28T19:19:58Z")
FWIW, I linked earlier to [NK Jemisin’s essay on orcs](https://nkjemisin.com/2013/02/from-the-mailbag-the-unbearable-baggage-of-orcing/). It’s a quick, informal read, and it doesn’t get at all the issues surrounding orcs, but I think it’s worth considering why the most heavily awarded SF/F author of the last 20 years, and probably the most heavily awarded SF/F author of color of all time, isn’t down with orcs. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/366 "2021-02-28T19:20:07Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The pale skinned elves, when corrupted by pure evil, became “swarthy” Then why do the hobbits have nut brown skin? Why is Aragon “dark”? Why is Wormtongue whiter than white? Why is Saruman white? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/367 "2021-02-28T19:20:45Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > “because they are evil elves and dark = evil” But that’s not really true. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/368 "2021-02-28T19:21:25Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Right, but as DrDeth pointed out dnd orcs look the way they do because they were cribbed from Tolkien Except Gygax pretty much just grabbed the name, not the lore or whatever. And “Orc” as a name and concept pre-dated Tolkien in Germanic folklore. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/369 "2021-02-28T19:24:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Then why do the hobbits have nut brown skin? > > Why is Aragon “dark”? Why is Wormtongue whiter than white? Why is Saruman white? “I can’t be racist, I have black friends!” Aka “Tolkien’s orcs can’t be racist, he has some positive dark characters!” ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/370 "2021-02-28T19:26:42Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > “I can’t be racist, I have black friends!” There ya go. Hobbits have nut brown skin so their Euro-friends can’t be racist! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/371 "2021-02-28T19:32:26Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Except Gygax pretty much just grabbed the name, not the lore or whatever. And “Orc” as a name and concept pre-dated Tolkien in Germanic folklore. Again, check out post 319, where Gygax (I think he wrote the 1E Monster Manual) says, “Orcs appear particularly disgusting because their coloration - brown or brownish green with a bluish sheen - highlights their pinkish snouts and ears” and then goes on to crib from the anti-race-mixing style book to describe orcs as rapacious brutes who will fuck anything and therefore create all sorts of racial “unsavory mongrels” only some of whom can pass as “true creatures of other stock”. The idea that Gygax in particular wasn’t racist is risible. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/372 "2021-02-28T19:34:15Z")
Or maybe- you guys are just wrong. Maybe there is no guy with a erect penis in that ice cube, maybe your prejudices are coloring what _you_ see. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/373 "2021-02-28T19:35:19Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The idea that Gygax in particular wasn’t racist is risible. No one who knew him thought so. You read _one_ description of _one_ fantasy monster and conclude that he is racist. It is to laugh. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/374 "2021-02-28T19:44:38Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > “Orcs appear particularly disgusting because their coloration - brown or brownish green with a bluish sheen - highlights their pinkish snouts and ears” So… bluish-brown or brownish-green with pink snouts (pig snouts, per the illustrations) and ears? That’s… uhh… not great evidence. That sounds like a fantasy monster. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/375 "2021-02-28T19:49:53Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > That sounds like a fantasy monster. In the Venn diagram, do the circles “fantasy monster” and “racist trope” have any overlap at all? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/376 "2021-02-28T19:50:09Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No one who knew him thought so. You read _one_ description of _one_ fantasy monster and conclude that he is racist. It is to laugh. [Yeah, we’re done](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/drdeth-is-a-fuckin-jackass/933971). ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/377 "2021-02-28T19:56:57Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > In the Venn diagram, do the circles “fantasy monster” and “racist trope” have any overlap at all? Sure. And I’m not going to play a game of defining all of them for you (though, again, go back to my specific criticism on Drow). I don’t think this one qualifies. You can, of course, use Orcs in a racist manner and make them say Ooga-Booga and throw the PCs in a pot and wear bones in their noses as they dance in a circle. That ain’t what’s happening in the artwork you commented on. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/378 "2021-02-28T20:01:55Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Not once did i even get a whiff of racism. You should defer to those who still have a sense of smell, then. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/379 "2021-02-28T20:02:21Z")
[I thought orcs were green.](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/oots/images/1/12/Arrrghcloak.png/revision/latest?cb=20170303022655) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/380 "2021-02-28T20:04:07Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No one who knew him thought so. Would those be the same people that think a metal bikini is proper fighting attire for female characters? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114.md?page=20)