# D & D got woke and that's good because you should have all been playing that way (or not if you didn't prefer)) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** rpg-dnd-wargames\ **Created:** [February 17, 2021, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114 "2021-02-17T10:36:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/461 "2021-03-03T02:18:31Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > As anyone who’s watched Deep Space 9 will tell you, Klingons are _cool_ . They’re honorable warriors, loyal friends and passionate lovers. Unlike the milquetoast Federation races (including the humans), they actually seem to enjoy life, seizing it with both hands and digging in with everything they’ve got. > > Yes, they’re barbarians - but they’re barbarians in the awesome, Robert E. Howard sense, primal man uncorrupted by modern civilization. They’re not orcs. Well, that’s the counterargument: “See, they have personalities, and…opera.” But watch with a more jaundiced eye (my intellectual liver has been strained by years of pop culture) at how they are treated by the writers reveals a lot less egalitarianism that it seems at first. _TNG_-era Klingons are always going on about killing each other for pride, the glory of dying in battle, et cetera; your basic barbarian cultural characteristics, with the humans in attendance watching with kind of a bemused tolerance at such unenlightened antics. On _DS9_ they’re often called out for breaking Quark’s holosuites and doing other casually wanton acts of damage, and there is a running joke about how Worf’s love-making is so aggressive that Dax has to seek medical attention on a daily basis. (Being familiar with Klingon customs, she apparently gives as good as she gets, but still, it harkens to an image of a race of savages that have to be tamed to mingle with civilized company which is recognizable to anyone familiar with the stereotypes of “the negro” in Western culture.) And yet, they _aren’t_ some Bronze Age culture uplifted to starfaring state or “primal man uncorrupted by modern civilization”; they’ve built an interstellar empire, developed warp drive and directed energy weapons, transporters, and the other technomagical gadgetry of the _Star Trek_ universe all on their own to the point that they are the military and exploratory equal of the vaunted Starfleet. Somewhere behind the curtain of their warrior culture, they have engineers and scientists and explorers and program managers and accountants…but according to what is presented about Klingons in the context of the show, those would all be dishonorable professions whose practitioners should be fair game for abuse and arbitrary killing. Klingons are not orcs in the sense of being mindless killing machines but they are often treated in orc-like fashion by the writers for the sake of creating an opponent that can be dispatched (in oddly bloodless fashion despite the fact that they mostly use stabby weapons) without any moral consequences, and who will fight to the death with each other over minor offenses. Sure, you can find instances where the writers subvert this superficial trope with some kind of Klingon counterculture (see, Worf drinks prune juice and calls it a “warrior’s drink!”) but that’s kind of like painting a Ferrari grey to make it less ostentatious. Michael Dorn–who is a fine and much underused actor–tries his best to imbue Mr. Worf with a real personality beyond just being the example of how dangerous a situation is by running headlong into danger and being flung aside by the threat-of-the-week, but he’s working against this established stereotype to do so, and the general impression given is that he is always struggling to contain “the beast within”…which is very much a European colonialist view of “taming the savage races”. You can see how that leaves a bitter aftertaste, even if the Klingons are fun in a boisterous, great-fun-as-long-as-they-aren’t-stabbing-you way. It is curious that you note the translating of Shakespeare to Klingon, because the original reference for this is _Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country_, which is the one bit of _Star Trek_ canon that unambiguously calls out this stereotyping head on. The uncomfortable diplomatic dinner where the Klingons end up calling out the _Enterprise_ command crew for their implicit (and in Kirk’s case, explicit) bigotry is a stark contrast to the near-constant smugness of the Federation as being otherwise morally superior to Klingons, Romulans, Ferengi, Cardassians, et cetera. It highlights how patronizing it is to treat the Klingons as a singular archetype, which is what every other _Star Trek_ movie and show does on a regular basis. Of course, the reality is that no alien culture would look or act anything like humanity, and aliens are widely portrayed as humanoid monocultures in television and movies both for the convenience of production (e.g. you can make a new alien race with a forehead prosthetic and a few colloquialisms) and because human-like aliens are far more relatable than some kind of intelligent motile fungi or a post-singularity society that has transformed itself into a cosmic megastructure. But to make it relatable writers and producers often resort to using recognizable archetypes, and in the case of the Klingons, that archetype is of the brutish subhuman just capable of controlling themselves sufficient to wear clothing and make polite noises. And that is basically a classic fantasy orc of your AD&D variety, suitable for taming, enslaving, or murdering as you see fit. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/462 "2021-03-03T02:35:24Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The original Klingons were unquestionably yellowface - they were explicitly called out as “Oriental” in the script, and are clearly meant to be a stand in for communist China. The explanation I heard was Klingons = Russians Romulans = Chinese Vulcans = Japanese I suppose Federation = Americans obviously. Ferengi as Jews sounds plausibly deliberate, but I am not sufficiently familiar with racist media to be able to tell whether they specifically meant Ashkenazi Jews or Persian Jews or merely Jews in general (or, as the thoroughly prejudiced Peter Wimsey said when the banker’s name was either Abraham or Macdonald, that would be a ‘distinction without a difference’ ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/463 "2021-03-03T02:39:30Z")
My understanding is that Roddenberry created the Ferengi to represent late 20th Century American capitalism. “Ferengi” is very much like “Phiringi,” “Firang,” “Franj,” and similar words common all the way across North Africa and Asia to mean “white people” or even Specifically Europeans or Americans in some places (ultimately derived from “Frank”). ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/464 "2021-03-03T02:41:50Z")
Now that you mention it, I seem to recall a (TNG) episode where Riker dismissed Ferengi as ‘Yankee traders’. As a military threat they were to be taken seriously, though. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/465 "2021-03-03T02:48:00Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > The explanation I heard was > Klingons = Russians > Romulans = Chinese > Vulcans = Japanese Hear from who? IIRC The TOS script that introduced the Klingons described them as “Asians- hard faced” RE Yankee Trader That would be the TNG episode that first showed the Ferengi. I cannot recall the episode title. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/466 "2021-03-03T02:58:23Z")
Again, it’s literally in the script of their first appearance: > [@](#): > > The script of “Errand of Mercy” introduces the Klingon look by saying, " _We see the Klingons are Orientals,_ " ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/467 "2021-03-03T03:00:40Z")
19th century Bengali poet Hensman Anthony, who was of Portuguese descent, took the nom de plume Anthony Phiringi অ্যাণ্টনি ফিরিংগী, Anthony the Foreigner. > **[firangi - Wiktionary, the free dictionary](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/firangi)** # firangi _See also:_ \*\*[Firangi] ### Alternative forms - [Feringhee] - [Firangi] ### Etymology From [Hindi] [फ़िरंगी] (firaṅgī) or [Urdu] [فرنگی]‎ (firangī), from [Persian] \*[فرنگی] (farangi), from [Arabic] [إفرنجي] ‎ (ʾifranjiyy), from [Old French] _[franc]_ . [Doublet] of \*[franc] ### Pronunciation /fiɹʌŋɡiː/ ### Noun **firangi** ( _plural_ **[firangis]** _or_ **firangi** ) 1. [India], [Britain], [Pakistan] A foreigner, especially a British or a white person. - **1995** , Peter Ward Fay, The Forgotten Army: India’s Armed Struggle for Independence 1942-1945, page 109: Prem, who knew him slightly from Dehra Dun (where Dhillon had been his junior), remembers Dhillon cheerfully telling everyone that the **firangi** were glad to have Indians patrolling their wire. This Prem doubted. - **2001** , Basavaraj Naikar, The Sun Behind the Cloud, page 239: Then Kashibayi cleared her throat and told him, “Maharaj, our Babasaheb Sarkar was a very patriotic king who fought against the **firangi** fellows. He was betrayed by his own people who were shamelessly treacherous.” - **2004** , Christina Lamb, The Sewing Circles of Herat: A Personal Voyage Through Afghanistan, page 252: The neighbouring men had all come to see the _ **firangi** _ , the foreign woman, […] See also - [farang] ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/468 "2021-03-03T03:14:01Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Hear from who? IIRC The TOS script that introduced the Klingons described them as “Asians- hard faced” A friend who is a _Star Trek_ fan. Not an official source. BTW not all Russians (or we may expand to talk about the SSSR) live in Europe nor look the same, but I would assume the symbolism (as with the Ferengi) was primarily political and cultural rather than about making fun of the physical appearance of Slavs/Asians. As for D&D/Tolkien, the orc/elf/dwarf/hobbit stuff never seemed particularly enlightened — perhaps someone knows more about Gygax’s thoughts beyond putting in everything that sounded cool— but how about the decidedly non-woken feudalism, conflicts, warlords, monarchs, social inequality, lack of serious industry/agriculture/economy, and so on? Seems like a known-crapsack world where a lot of racism and genocide is merely par for the course. Note that the players are looting and tomb-raiding abandoned dungeons instead of acting as archaeologists and linguists. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/469 "2021-03-03T03:50:51Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Seems like a known-crapsack world where a lot of racism and genocide is merely par for the course. Note that the players are looting and tomb-raiding abandoned dungeons instead of acting as archaeologists and linguists. Another reason I love Eberron - it really flips many of these tropes ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/470 "2021-03-03T03:57:53Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Note that the players are looting and tomb-raiding abandoned dungeons instead of acting as archaeologists and linguists. The book _Perdido Street Station_ is written by a guy who grew up playing D&D, and when his weird-as-hell city starts devolving into chaos, a band of filthy murderous grave-robbers show up looking to steal whatever they can from corpses, and if they have to manufacture the corpses, they’re okay with that. When I realized he was describing yer typical band of adventurers, I laughed aloud. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/471 "2021-03-03T06:43:23Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > but how about the decidedly non-woken feudalism, conflicts, warlords, monarchs, social inequality, lack of serious industry/agriculture/economy, and so on? In my world, all of that (and capitalism and sexism and colourism) characterizes the _antagonists_. All of those are what my PCs fight _against_. My PCs are quite _literally_ Social Justice Warriors. My human or halfling-only PCs, I might add. Fighting against their mostly human antagonists. I don’t use orcs (my take on them is pretty identical to Jemisin’s now - and I say this as someone who _used_ to reread _LoTR_ annually), and my goblins are highly morally variable denizens of liminal Fairyland, not just shorter orcs. As are my elves - and I definitely don’t use drow - why would I, when Fairyland elves can be terrific enough on their own. > [@DPRK](#): > > Note that the players are looting and tomb-raiding abandoned dungeons instead of acting as archaeologists and linguists. Sure, if their DM’s head is still stuck in the 70s (and up Gygax’s bottom). Modern D&D can be so much more than dungeon-crawling. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2021, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/472 "2021-03-04T07:19:58Z")
There was an interesting novel by… let’s see… Emrys Ruthanna where the _protagonists_ were all Deep Ones, Cthulhu cultists, Yith, Mi-Go, etc. Lovecraft was an imaginative guy who only abjured and repudiated his remarkable racism (and sexism, homophobia, etc.) — maybe — on his deathbed. So it is nice that some people were able to turn that around. And there is a “Call of Cthulhu” RPG, of course. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2021, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/473 "2021-03-04T07:24:26Z")
I’m ambivalent on the Mythos - sure, guy was a _cyclopean_ racist - but some of the derived works that are in conversation with that are just awesome - stuff like _Lovecraft Country_ and _Shoggoths in Bloom_ ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2021, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/474 "2021-03-04T17:04:09Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > _cyclopean_ racist what’s that? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2021, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/475 "2021-03-04T17:15:01Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > There was an interesting novel by… let’s see… Emrys Ruthanna where the _protagonists_ were all Deep Ones, Cthulhu cultists, Yith, Mi-Go, etc. Lovecraft was an imaginative guy who only abjured and repudiated his remarkable racism (and sexism, homophobia, etc.) — maybe — on his deathbed. So it is nice that some people were able to turn that around. She’s a good writer but _Litany of the Earth_ was predicated on the idea that Lovecraft’s _The Shadow Over Innsmouth_ was a lie which didn’t sit well with me. It just makes me think of fan fiction where it turns out the Empire are really the good guys and blowing up the Death Star was an act of terrorism. > [@DPRK](#): > > And there is a “Call of Cthulhu” RPG, of course. And you’ll find some people who are very unhappy that Lovecraft’s work is still often cited as an influence for various role playing games. Including the recently released Rime of the Frostmaiden campaign for D&D. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2021, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/476 "2021-03-04T17:15:36Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > > [@MrDibble](#): > > > > _cyclopean_ racist > > what’s that? Odysseus. That dude really hated cyclops. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2021, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/477 "2021-03-04T17:19:36Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > _cyclopean_ [Definition 2](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cyclopean). It’s exactly the kind of word HPL loved using. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2021, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/478 "2021-03-04T17:51:04Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Odysseus. That dude really hated cyclops. Well, one of them, right? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2021, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/479 "2021-03-04T17:52:22Z")
Was Cyclops a whole race of beings in Greek mythology, or a unique individual like the Minotaur or Medusa which RPG writers would later turn into a species? ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2021, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/480 "2021-03-04T17:54:32Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > And you’ll find some people who are very unhappy that Lovecraft’s work is still often cited as an influence for various role playing games. Including the recently released Rime of the Frostmaiden campaign for D&D. But it _is_ an influence. To deny the racist past is to whitewash history. It’s better to acknowledge the issue and call out the specific themes being used, while denouncing the parts that are no longer wanted. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114.md?page=25)