# D & D got woke and that's good because you should have all been playing that way (or not if you didn't prefer)) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** rpg-dnd-wargames\ **Created:** [February 17, 2021, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114 "2021-02-17T10:36:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/561 "2021-07-26T21:42:13Z")
“Yeah, but you’re implying that the fact that he was good was worth a story in itself.” [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/rywVlfTtlMY/hqdefault.jpg "Blasphemy Channel: Good Samaritan - That Mitchell and Webb Look") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rywVlfTtlMY) ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/562 "2021-07-28T15:46:13Z")
When I was playing in 81-83, the core group was three men and two women (I don’t think I ever played a D&D session without a woman in the party). My experience might be unusual, though. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/563 "2021-07-28T18:45:56Z")
The only time we ever had women at the table was when one of our players’ girlfriend would tag along. Almost seemed as though they were doing so out of a suspicion that they were cheating on them or something, and once they realized that their significant other was actually enjoying themselves quite a bit, and that they weren’t themselves, they usually dropped out. Starting to get together a new group, hope to make it a bit more diverse. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/564 "2021-07-28T18:55:08Z")
I’d never been in a regular RPG group that had a woman in it until I got my wife to start playing. She’s running a campaign now, so that worked out. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/565 "2021-07-28T19:08:13Z")
I think that the popularity of online streaming of D&D games, like Critical Role, may help a bit. Certainly seems to have made RPGs a bit more popular in general. ---
**Author:** ![Dark\_Sponge](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dark_sponge/32/121_2.png) [@Dark\_Sponge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dark_Sponge)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/566 "2021-07-28T19:42:18Z")
My (grown) son just started a campaign for our weekly family game night. His girlfriend is very much into it and my daughter is enjoying it too. I couldn’t convince my wife to join but she spectates. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/567 "2021-07-28T19:51:05Z")
Our OG back in the 70’s included several females (Ok, we did call them 'girls" but we were all just out of HS). I was surprised later to learn that was unusual. My groups have almost always had a female player or two. My current group has a Mom and her son. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/568 "2021-07-28T23:21:26Z")
And now I feel bad about never playing with any women. But I’ve been playing with the same two guys - and only with them - since 1992, and none of our wives are interested. (We played together before 1992, too, but they went to an all-boys school, and I… wasn’t very good at talking to girls, so it wasn’t really an option). ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/569 "2021-07-29T07:14:30Z")
The roleplaying experience I had was very different to most of yours. Roleplaying at UCT was practically _run_ by women in the late 80s (still is, actually). The best DMs (the ones whose table everyone wanted to be at, I mean) were women, at least 50% of the players were women, the roleplaying club chair was often a woman. And not remotely in the reluctant girlfriend mould, any of them. As for Drizzt: I think the point is that yes, Drizzt and his dad and some other Drow were not evil, but evil was very much still portrayed as the Drow _norm_ that they were extremely _exceptional_ to. That’s going to go away. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/570 "2021-07-29T08:35:35Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > As for Drizzt: I think the point is that yes, Drizzt and his dad and some other Drow were not evil, but evil was very much still portrayed as the Drow _norm_ that they were extremely _exceptional_ to. That’s going to go away. Is there a difference, in your mind, between _genetically_ evil and _culturally_ evil? Because there have been human cultures, throughout history, that I might consider evil - cultures where bigotry and intolerance were the norm, where empathy and compassion were actively suppressed, where horrible things were done to other people as a matter of habit and policy; and yet, these cultures consisted of people who were exactly like you and me. Would you accept that kind of Drow society, if the official materials expressly state that other Drow cultures are possible? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/571 "2021-07-29T08:38:07Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Is there a difference, in your mind, between _genetically_ evil and _culturally_ evil? Sure. One is a real-world thing and one isn’t possible. > [@Alessan](#): > > Would you accept that kind of Drow society, if the official materials expressly state that other Drow cultures are possible? Only if the official material does a lot more than state others are possible. Those other cultures have to be given equal or greater _representation_ as well. If a token attempt is made, but _most_ Drow shown or written about are still the Underdark Lolth-worshipping S&M fanatics, that’s just a sop. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2022, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/572 "2022-08-10T19:10:43Z")
Sorry to bump this old thread with its wack title, but I thought it might be a good place to mention a new book about the creation of D&D and the rise and fall of TSR called [Slaying the Dragon](https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/58724805-slaying-the-dragon). I’m only about 50 pages in and there’s not much about politics in there, but there are lots of interviews from people who were there at the beginning and throughout, including members of the Gygax family, and it does not shy away from criticisms. I thought some folks who were active in this thread might be interested. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2022, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/573 "2022-08-10T19:22:20Z")
The more I’ve learned about TSR over the years, the more amazed I am at how successful they were for as long as they were. They really caught lightning in a bottle. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2022, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/574 "2022-08-11T09:39:54Z")
You know, soon after this thread I started designing a world for a campaign I’m running. I must have taken your thoughts into account, because my drow are a bit different than standard: First of all, surface elves and underground elves are genetically identical. All elves were part of a nasty demon-worshipping civilization that was driven underground. The underground (drow) elves are the ones who remained below the surface and kept to the old ways, while the surface (high, wood) elves were the ones who rejected their culture and ascended to the surface to find redemption. Of course, there are still good elves in the Underdark, and evil elves in the surface world. Second of all, all elves, both surface and underground, have the same full range of complexions and hair types as humans. For obvious reasons, light-skinned drow tend to be paler than their surface cousins, but that aside, any elf can be from either culture. It’s basically a Vulcan/Romulan situation. Finally, the drow, when raiding the sunlit lands, usually wear dark facial makeup for camouflage and intimidation purposes. This has led to the myth that drow have black skin. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2022, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/575 "2022-08-11T13:55:15Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Finally, the drow, when raiding the sunlit lands, usually wear dark facial makeup for camouflage and intimidation purposes. This has led to the myth that drow have black skin. I don’t think drow perpetrating murders in blackface is necessarily the inspiration I was hoping to generate. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2022, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/576 "2022-08-11T13:59:18Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I don’t think drow perpetrating murders in blackface is necessarily the inspiration I was hoping to generate. Heh. You may have a point. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2022, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/577 "2022-08-11T15:08:28Z")
Don’t get me wrong - it’s certainly a creative way of accounting for the "dark elf’ moniker, and I appreciate that. Might work better if it was, say, obsidian masks or something. That’s a little less close to the bone than make-up would be. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2022, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/578 "2022-08-11T15:16:48Z")
Obsidian masks sound awesome, especially if the Drow craftsmanship is skilled enough to leave them full of flat, reflective surfaces at hard angles to one another. Lught reflecting off these masks would be epic. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2022, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/579 "2022-08-11T15:40:07Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Don’t get me wrong - it’s certainly a creative way of accounting for the "dark elf’ moniker, and I appreciate that. Might work better if it was, say, obsidian masks or something. That’s a little less close to the bone than make-up would be. Ok, that’s a good idea, and a great visual. The only drow my players have met so far are spies disguised as surface elves, so I can still change the lore. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2022, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/580 "2022-08-11T16:23:07Z")
Or, another idea–maybe, because of their light sensitivity, surface scouts are equipped with a simple magic item. It’s a headband that projects a field of darkness around the wearer’s face, obscuring their features and negating their light sensitivity feature. Coupled with the full-body outfits they wear (drow sunburns are the _worst_), it’s given rise to stories about dark elves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114.md?page=30)