# D & D got woke and that's good because you should have all been playing that way (or not if you didn't prefer)) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** rpg-dnd-wargames\ **Created:** [February 17, 2021, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114 "2021-02-17T10:36:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2022, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/581 "2022-08-11T16:34:57Z")
Or maybe call them “deep elves” instead of “dark elves.” It describes them better and has a mildly sinister undertone without the implicit racial ones. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2022, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/582 "2022-08-12T02:07:35Z")
I’m prepping for a new campaign I’m starting in the Fall. It’s the _Skull and Shackles_ adventure path from Pathfinder 1st edition, which I’m expanding into a full sandbox. Lots of great stuff in there, but holy shit, it seems like every single female villain has sexual violence and/or rape in her backstory, including the _ancient red dragon_. To compound it, only the female villains apparently need a traumatic backstory to justify them being villain. They’re villains because they’re shitty people who like to hurt others, and that’s considered enough. The women all need some event that “broke” them and turned them into shitty people. It is weird and gross, and this is from a campaign that’s only ~ten years old. ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2022, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/583 "2022-08-12T02:33:39Z")
well it’s still happening I mealnlook at Disneys maleficent movies …and 90 percent of anything Mercedes lackey has ever written ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/584 "2022-09-05T16:47:19Z")
Baby steps, WOTC, baby steps… > **[Amid Criticism, Wizards Of The Coast Quietly Removes Racist Lore From...](https://kotaku.com/dnd-dungeons-dragons-spelljammer-hadozee-wizards-coast-1849491335)** > > The recently published Astral Adventurer’s Guide drew criticism over language and art that mirrored the anti-Black racism of earlier editions of D&D Just so we’re clear, the stuff they’re now walking back includes this: [![](https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/c_fit,f_auto,g_center,pg_1,q_60,w_645/ab1c18d6bae957705060aa5043962b4a.jpg) ](https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/c_fit,f_auto,g_center,pg_1,q_60,w_645/ab1c18d6bae957705060aa5043962b4a.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/585 "2022-09-05T18:21:35Z")
I’ve no idea what race or ethnicity that is supposed to be representative of. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/586 "2022-09-05T18:27:11Z")
Good for you. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/587 "2022-09-05T18:29:51Z")
I’m not sure if you mean I’m not racist or if I’m just stupid. (Or both, a strong possibility.) Like, seriously, what’s that supposed to refer to in real life? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/588 "2022-09-05T18:34:43Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I’m not sure if you mean I’m not racist or if I’m just stupid Well, that’s bait, I’d say, so I’m going to skip past it to… > [@RickJay](#): > > Like, seriously, what’s that supposed to refer to in real life? It must be nice to be blissfully ignorant of the entire history of Jim Crow and minstrel caricatures. Of course, the article I linked to some example, but who reads links, amirite? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/589 "2022-09-05T18:35:03Z")
[![](https://library.brown.edu/cds/sheetmusic/afam/slides/alabamajoe.jpg) ](https://library.brown.edu/cds/sheetmusic/afam/slides/alabamajoe.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/590 "2022-09-05T18:35:53Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It must be nice to be blissfully ignorant of the entire history of Jim Crow and minstrel caricatures. I guess the European medieval dress threw me off, then. Not at all visibly reminiscent of Jim Crow or minstrel caricatures. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/591 "2022-09-05T18:36:41Z")
The image by itself might not be so bad, but combined with a backstory that boils down to “wizards enslaved and then civilized them,” and it’s pretty tough to ignore. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/592 "2022-09-05T18:38:33Z")
The backstory does point one in a direction, obviously. I wonder; could you have that backstory if you made the imagery really, really obviously NOT black people? (Or not humanoid at all?) I mean, it’s not as if I’m saying this sort of thing can’t be offensive (cough Watto from Phantom Menace cough.) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/593 "2022-09-05T18:40:44Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I wonder; could you have that backstory if you made the imagery really, really obviously NOT black people? (Or not humanoid at all?) “Superior species enslaves and civilizes inferior species” is problematic no matter what. Making them happy little minstrel monkeys alongside that backstory just makes it particularly egregious. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/594 "2022-09-05T18:44:59Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > “Superior species enslaves and civilizes inferior species” is problematic no matter what. Quite possibly. It might be best for WOTC and other similar outfits producing entertainment content, in whatever media, to just avoid the subject entirely. ---
**Author:** ![Retzbu\_Tox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/retzbu_tox/32/11829_2.png) [@Retzbu\_Tox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Retzbu_Tox)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/595 "2022-09-05T19:30:41Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I’ve no idea what race or ethnicity that is supposed to be representative of. I haven’t looked much at the 1980s version of Spelljammer (D&D fantasy spacefaring) or at the new version, but that appears to be a member of the Hadozee species. They look very similar to the Yazirians from TSR’s old science fiction game, Star Frontiers (which I _have_ played), and I think are supposed to be a fantasy version of that species. I know nothing about Hadozee culture. In Star Frontiers, the Yazirians were the smartest of the playable sentient alien races. Spelljammer should have left them simply as smart (fantasy) space-faring aliens. I won’t be surprised if they revert to whatever the 1980s backstory was for the Hadozee, now that their weird slave-race version has sparked backlash. In the 1980s, the Hadozee were monsters, not a playable race, > **[Yazirian](https://starfrontiers.fandom.com/wiki/Yazirian)** > > Yazirians are a space-faring sentient mammalian species which inhabits the worlds of the Frontier Sector. They are one of the four basic "PC Races" introduced in Alpha Dawn. Yazirians are tall, light-boned humanoids with furry manes around their... ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/596 "2022-09-05T19:50:52Z")
It isn’t supposed to be any human race, etc. In D&D you can play a number of animal like races- cat people, goat people (satyrs), rabbit people, crow people, etc. That is a monkey person. I do not get any IRL racial stuff out of that. I see some people are getting a “jim crow minstrel” vibe from that, but there is no blackface or anything. The eyes, teeth , feet are all clearly non-human. The backstory is problematic, sure. ---
**Author:** ![Retzbu\_Tox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/retzbu_tox/32/11829_2.png) [@Retzbu\_Tox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Retzbu_Tox)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/597 "2022-09-05T20:03:19Z")
There _are_ other depictions of them. I would presume the “minstrel” represents a Hadozee Bard. There may be some cherrypicking going on regarding the artwork. The backstory of being a freed slave-race is the bigger issue to me. [![](https://techraptor.net/sites/default/files/styles/herobanner_desktop/public/2022-09/D%26D%20Hadozee%20Race%20Original%20Artwork.jpg?itok=L9Tcy_Ex) ](https://techraptor.net/sites/default/files/styles/herobanner_desktop/public/2022-09/D%26D%20Hadozee%20Race%20Original%20Artwork.jpg?itok=L9Tcy_Ex) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/598 "2022-09-05T20:06:17Z")
Combine it all (back story, monkeys, and minstrel stuff) and it’s either deliberate allusions to racist imagery, or extremely coincidental inadvertent clear allusions to racist imagery. Either way, it should be rewritten and redrawn. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/599 "2022-09-05T20:14:50Z")
Typing on this phone is hard. I follow D&D on Facebook. I saw an announcement that they were redacting material on the Hadozee. I did not know why or what Hadozee were. Now my only question is how in the nine hells did that material make it to publication? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/600 "2022-09-05T20:40:26Z")
Well, according to one source, they came up with the Hadozee in 1982. In 1982 attention to this sort of insensitivity was nonexistent. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114.md?page=31)