# D & D got woke and that's good because you should have all been playing that way (or not if you didn't prefer)) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** rpg-dnd-wargames\ **Created:** [February 17, 2021, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114 "2021-02-17T10:36:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/681 "2022-09-10T14:26:30Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I’ve been thinking about it, and other than the Hadozee and a couple of demons, I can’t seem to come up with any sentient D&D races with ape or monkey-like characteristics. [Phanatons](https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Phanaton_(5e_Race)) (monkey-racoon-flying squirrel hybrids), [apefolk](https://www.5esrd.com/database/race/apefolk/) (they are straight-up intelligent apes), [Spirits of the Air](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Spirit_of_the_air) (not current, and more akin to demons than a player or NPC race) ---
**Author:** ![Retzbu\_Tox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/retzbu_tox/32/11829_2.png) [@Retzbu\_Tox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Retzbu_Tox)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/682 "2022-09-10T14:37:17Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Mialee the wizard I don’t recall any backstory for those example archetype characters, mostly just name, picture, race, and class in the Player’s Handbook. Were they used in any of the Forgotten Realms novels? (I didn’t read any of the TSR/WotC fiction.) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/683 "2022-09-10T15:40:47Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The part I don’t understand is how this image is any more evocative of minstrelsy than it is of any other tradition of performance. Lemme number these. Please say which numbers you disagree with. 1. Minstrelsy deliberately played up stereotypes about Black people. 2. One of those stereotypes was that Black people were monkey-like. 3. One of the ways it did so was by having the blackface performers caper. 4. Capering, in this context, is a manner of dancing that is perceived to be monkey-like. 5. Monkey-like dancing often involves a wide stance with bent knees and bouncing back and forth from foot to foot. 6. The hadozee in the image has a wide stance and has one foot raised. 7. That stance comes across as monkey-like capering–an appropriate behavior for a monkey, or a monkey-person. 8. It also calls to mind images of blackface performers mocking Black people by dancing in a similar fashion. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/684 "2022-09-10T15:41:14Z")
There were at least a few named characters like Mordenkainen and Tenser that Gygax put in, but I don’t recall that their backstories were fleshed out in the actual handbook. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/685 "2022-09-10T15:56:22Z")
That’s not a problem with that image; that’s a problem with having a race of monkeyfolk. Given that a monkey-like race exists, any art of them is obviously going to appear monkey-like. That’s why I posted the list of potential issues in post 663, to try to focus in on what the actual issue is. > [@Retzbu\_Tox](#): > > I don’t recall any backstory for those example archetype characters, mostly just name, picture, race, and class in the Player’s Handbook. Were they used in any of the Forgotten Realms novels? (I didn’t read any of the TSR/WotC fiction.) So far as I know, the only backstory they ever had was trivial stuff like “Jozan is a worshiper of Pelor”. But I wouldn’t be shocked to learn that someone had written tie-in novels about them. And Gygax’s characters like Mordenkainen and Tenser, the only references to them at all in the rulebooks are the spells named after them. ---
**Author:** ![Retzbu\_Tox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/retzbu_tox/32/11829_2.png) [@Retzbu\_Tox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Retzbu_Tox)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/686 "2022-09-10T16:04:01Z")
Many of the characters used in spell names were players and NPCs from the original Greyhawk campaign. Mordenkainen was Gary Gygax’s own player character. Tenser is Ernest spelled backward, a character played by Gary’s son Ernie Gygax. Drawmij was Jim Ward’s character. Dorks. Who would use their own name backward for their D&D character? 🙄 OK, I would. Here’s what stumps me. My first character in the 1970’s was a wizard named Tox, with a pseudodragon familiar. Then, years later, this miniature came out: [RPR02700 Tox Wizard Miniature 25mm Heroic Scale Dark Heaven Legends Reaper Miniatures](https://wondertrail.com/new-products/rpr02700-tox.html) [![](https://wondertrail.com/images/detailed/54/RPR02700.jpg) ](https://wondertrail.com/images/detailed/54/RPR02700.jpg) Hmmm… ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/687 "2022-09-10T16:14:55Z")
> [@Retzbu\_Tox](#): > > Tenser is Ernest spelled backward Do you mean an anagram? That works, but Ernest spelled difference is “Tsenre.” ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/688 "2022-09-10T16:37:20Z")
A post was merged into an existing topic: [Sock Posts by NewKobladReality](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sock-posts-by-newkobladreality/971333/2) ---
**Author:** ![Retzbu\_Tox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/retzbu_tox/32/11829_2.png) [@Retzbu\_Tox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Retzbu_Tox)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/689 "2022-09-10T16:20:27Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Do you mean an anagram? That works, but Ernest spelled difference is “Tsenre.” Oo! Yar! Lack of attention to detail on my part! Drawmij is the backwards one! 😁 ---
**Author:** ![Retzbu\_Tox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/retzbu_tox/32/11829_2.png) [@Retzbu\_Tox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Retzbu_Tox)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/690 "2022-09-10T17:18:42Z")
_ **Deadlands** _ has made changes to eliminate some racist overtones. The original 1996 version of the game took place in an alternate timeline in which the Confederacy never lost the American Civil War, and consequently there were still slave states. Instead, the war dragged on and eventually stalemated, leading to the American West developing in a different and fractured manner. Some of the political developments were not critical to the plot of the game, because it is mostly a “cowboys versus evil” supernatural western. In the new version, _ **Deadlands: The Weird West** _, the timeline has been altered so that the Confederacy _ **did** _ lose, although history has still played out somewhat differently. The United States does not control all of the western territories. The game continues to have some independent Native American nations and the Mormon state of Deseret. What other games have made strides to change sensitive elements? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/691 "2022-09-10T17:45:21Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I understand the historical context of minstrelsy, and I understand why minstrelsy is a problem. That’s not the disconnect. The part I don’t understand is how this image is any more evocative of minstrelsy than it is of any other tradition of performance. So long as you keep looking for an analytical answer that unequivocally demonstrates the existence of racism, you will continue to be frustrated. Racism is not analytical, it is not logical. To even see insidious forms of racism, you must look holistically and you must accept that there are other people with a point of view that you are constitutionally incapable, perhaps permanently, of understanding in a complete sense. For example, I recently stated in one of the threads about gender that I simply don’t have the internal tools to truly understand gender disphorya. That does not mean that I keep arguing from the point of view that “I don’t see it.” What you do or don’t see is not always the most important the point. YOU MAY NEVER SEE IT, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. > [@Chronos](#): > > the next time anyone publishes anything with images in it, the artist is just as likely to make the same mistakes as this one did. We live in a racist society, one that has been racist for many generations. It’s baked in. If what you are looking for is a way to inoculate yourself from ever engaging in unconscious racism, you will fail, in the same way that there are groups whose members will always fail to inoculate themselves from being victims of racism. The first step is to accept that racism is baked into our subconscious beings. The next step is to be alert to it. The next step is to accept that even if you want to be non-racist you will sometimes fail, and you must be willing to take other people’ sword for it that something is happening that you are unable to perceive. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/692 "2022-09-10T18:03:43Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > and you must be willing to take other people’ sword for it Woah, let’s not go overboard. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Retzbu\_Tox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/retzbu_tox/32/11829_2.png) [@Retzbu\_Tox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Retzbu_Tox)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/693 "2022-09-10T18:11:41Z")
Now I see Acsenray in a whole new light! 😁 [![](https://miro.medium.com/max/1400/1*QJ_vv5XUt9-g2E3-t52mSQ.jpeg) ](https://miro.medium.com/max/1400/1*QJ_vv5XUt9-g2E3-t52mSQ.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/694 "2022-09-10T19:23:27Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > That’s not a problem with that image; that’s a problem with having a race of monkeyfolk. This is nonresponsive. Did you agree with every one of my eight points? What about this post, in which I explain some of the other issues? (Link is just there to go to the full post; the issues aren’t explained in the excerpt) > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Definitely. I’ve been thinking about this over the last couple of days, and I honestly can’t remember what are my own thoughts and what I got from here; but I’ll risk repeating what others have said with something that may help others understand. ---
**Author:** ![JohnnyEcks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnnyecks/32/18197_2.png) [@JohnnyEcks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnnyEcks)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/695 "2022-09-10T19:46:23Z")
Maybe I haven’t read this thread closely enough, but has anyone mentioned the obvious- that the D&D flying monkeys are transparently a reference to the Wizard of Oz flying monkeys? Even the backstory is the same, being enslaved by an evil magic user and later gaining their freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/696 "2022-09-10T20:19:13Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > What? No. Not even slightly. Did you mean to quote some other part of my post? Sorry, I accidentally quoted one sentence but I was addressing the post as a whole. The main takeaway I got from [your post](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/654) was that certain animals (i.e. monkeys, rats) are inseparable from a history of dehumanization, and therefore are off-limits for D&D characters. In your own words, > “Does this mean that it’s cool to create cat-people, and much less cool to create monkey-people? Yup. […] Racism […] the murder, torture, and oppression of millions of folks […] might also mean that you shouldn’t play monkey-people in fantasy games.” See also **Alessan** ’s post: > “Don’t draw apes wearing clothing. Just… don’t. Nothing good will come of it.” This is what I was trying to respond to. You cannot say zodiac animals (like monkeys and rats) are fine, while also saying monkeys (and rats) are off limits. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/697 "2022-09-10T20:22:20Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Not minstelsy, not an ounce of caper in her.: How many of those are WotC illustrations? > [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Every mythology on the planet - China’s included - has animal heroes and animal villains. That’s not at all relevant to LHoD’s point that ascribing animalistic features to people you hate is a classic method of **literally** dehumanizing your victim. While that is true, it has nothing whatsoever to do with WotC’s Monkey people race, nor their rabbit-people, hippo-people, rat-people, wolf people,Cat-people, Lion-people or Raven/crow people- and in the last they really are black. Why aren’t the Kenku black racist stereotypes? Yes, racists can use such things to demean a people. But the dudes at WotC are not racists. _There was absolutely no racist intent._ Now, yes, say WotC was based in Georgia or someplace in the deep south, and some designers/writers were known to be Proud Boys or something. Then, you could reasonably conclude that those monkey-people were a racist idea. WotC, after realizing the backstory , etc lead to possibly problematic inferences, pulled it and apologized. **There was no racism.** So, yeah, @Chronos is right. That does not mean people can’t _infer_ racism from that race, picture and backstory, but we KNOW there was none _implied._ > [@MrDibble](#): > > You’re not required to see. What you should be doing is _listening_. Because you’re blind to this, and you should be listening to those who aren’t. Yes, we have heard you over and over. You, and others, are _inferring_ racism. We understand why you see that. That is fine, you are not wrong in what you are seeing. But it is a known fact that no racism is _implied._ We are not wrong in what we are seeing, either. If we have a ink blot, different people will see different things in that blot. None of them are wrong. You are not wrong in seeing a issue in that blot. @Chronos is not wrong in not seeing an issue there. But what we know, for sure, is that the artist of that inkblot was not racist and did not imply racism. You can yell and get upset all you want that that inkblot is clearly racist, why can’t we see that ?!- but it is you that can’t get around the fact that others will see that inkblot differently. You are not listening to _us_… or WotC. > [@Chronos](#): > > I am listening. I keep on asking “What’s racist about this image?” and listening for the response, and all I keep on hearing is “Just look at it”. Yes, you (and I) are seeing the “inkblot” differently As the old joke goes- _A man is taking a Rorschach test_ _The doctor shows him an inkblot, and the man says “That looks like a huge pair of breasts”._ _The doctor shows him another inkblot, and the man says “That looks like a big thick cock”._ _The doctor shows him another inkblot, and the man says “That looks like a man fucking a woman in the ass”._ _At this point the doctor puts the inkblots away, and says, “Well, it seems as though you may be obsessed with sex”._ _And the patient says, “Me, obsessed with sex? You’re the one who’s showing me all these filthy pictures!”_ > [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Not if they listened. Well, they _did_ listen, as I explained many posts ago. WotC apologized and removed the backstory. I think we all agree that the combo was problematic, and WotC agreed. > [@What\_Exit](#): > > Hmm, looks far more like a ~~Hobbit~~ Halfling to me. I think you would have to squint pretty hard to find offense in that one. Yep. A Halfling. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/698 "2022-09-10T20:25:56Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Hmm, looks far more like a ~~Hobbit~~ Halfling to me. I think you would have to squint pretty hard to find offense in that one. IIRC, halflings - like elves - don’t have facial hair. I say gnomes. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/699 "2022-09-10T20:26:40Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Why aren’t the Kenku black racist stereotypes? Yes, racists can use such things to demean a people. But the dudes at WotC are not racists. There was absolutely no racist intent. I think this is a semantics issue. You evidently think something cannot be racist if it lacks racist intent, but I’d bet **Johnny\_Bravo** and **Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness** would say it is racist if it is perceived that way by some significant number of people. ETA: They may believe that no apology (no matter how sincere) can make something racist into something not racist. You might think unintentional racism is an oxymoron. No need to resolve these disagreements here, just be aware of them so we don’t talk past eachother. I’d say reasonable people get upset when they _perceive_ racism, and any company should take reasonable steps to avoid even the _appearance_ of racism. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/700 "2022-09-10T20:33:16Z")
I’m a middle-aged white man from a non-US background and have no problems seeing how the bard picture echos racist tropes. I’m also very curious if Chronos has any answers to MrDibble’s well crafted questions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114.md?page=36)