# D & D got woke and that's good because you should have all been playing that way (or not if you didn't prefer)) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** rpg-dnd-wargames\ **Created:** [February 17, 2021, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114 "2021-02-17T10:36:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/701 "2022-09-10T21:02:28Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > How many of those are WotC illustrations? Does it matter to the point I was making? No, it does not. > [@DrDeth](#): > > But what we know, for sure, is that the artist of that inkblot was not racist and did not imply racism. I know absolutely nothing about the artist of _this_ “inkblot” or what they intended. Because pictures are not inkblots. Perhaps you’ll cite how you know this, “known fact”? > [@DrDeth](#): > > If we have a ink blot, different people will see different things in that blot. … and what a person sees (or doesn’t see) tells one a lot about the person. And what a person chooses to push back on also says a lot. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/702 "2022-09-10T21:07:39Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > And what a person chooses to push back on also says a lot. And this is really the most telling thing in this discussion and speaks to the character of the pushers. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/703 "2022-09-10T21:10:40Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I know absolutely nothing about the artist of _this_ “inkblot” or what they intended. Because pictures are not inkblots. Perhaps you’ll cite how you know this, “known fact”? You do not know any of the Staff or Contributors of WotC? I do. They are based in Seattle, they are mostly Progressive, Liberal writers and creators. So, you are calling people you do not know, have never met and know nothing about - “racist” based upon a problematic illustration and background, which they already apologized for and withdrew? You are then, totally, utterly wrong. I am done with you. Insult someone else. Why not trump, or the Proud Boys, or any of the tens of millions of real racists? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/704 "2022-09-10T21:31:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You do not know any of the Staff or Contributors of WotC? I do. So, do you know _this particular artist_ personally?.Otherwise this is just so much irrelevance. > [@DrDeth](#): > > So, you are calling people you do not know, have never met and know nothing about - “racist” Am I? You care to quote me on that? > [@DrDeth](#): > > they already apologized for and withdrew? I’ve only seen a statement from WOTC, nothing from the artist themself. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Insult someone else. Where have I insulted anyone at WOTC? > [@DrDeth](#): > > Why not trump, or the Proud Boys, “Whataboutism” writ large. Not that I _haven’t_ insulted those people, mind you. But even if I had not, this would still be whataboutism and just a non-argument. > [@DrDeth](#): > > real racists Keeping the blame only on “real racists” is the kind of misdirection that only serves White supremacy, and Homie don’t play that. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/705 "2022-09-10T21:48:30Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > The main takeaway I got from [your post](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/654) was that certain animals (i.e. monkeys, rats) are inseparable from a history of dehumanization, and therefore are off-limits for D&D characters. In your own words, That’s not what I said, in my own words. That said, past your misunderstanding of what I said, there is an important point. While American culture’s tradition of monkey-human crossovers is pretty freakin’ racist, I know that there’s (for example) a Vietnamese cultural tradition that’s not racist. And [Girl Giant and the Monkey King](https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250240415/girlgiantandthemonkeyking) is tying into that tradition. I don’t think anyone suggests that author Van Hoang’s book has unpleasant resonances of minstrelsy. This is an issue with nuance to it, and it’s best approached by recognizing that nuance. Absolute declarations of “IT AIN’T RACIST” are just as foolish as a declaration that “THE CREATORS ARE SUPER RACIST” would be. Thing is, only one of those declarations is being made in this thread, and the people making it seem to be missing the nuance in what others are saying. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/706 "2022-09-10T21:52:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But it is a known fact that no racism is _implied._ You are misunderstanding what a fact is and you are misunderstanding what implicit bias is. I don’t really care to explain either to you, particularly when the latter has been explained extensively in this thread by myself and others. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveroptic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiveroptic/32/8257_2.png) [@Fiveroptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveroptic)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/707 "2022-09-10T22:06:08Z")
It simply astounds me that it is so difficult, nearly impossible it seems, for some white men to recognize racism even when it is pointed out to them line by line, by both white and non-white people alike. It’s almost like prosopagnosia, a neurological disorder where a person can’t recognize faces…except I highly doubt a pathological process can be blamed here. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/708 "2022-09-10T22:17:40Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That’s not what I said, in my own words. I apologize for the misunderstanding. ☹ Your main point escapes me, as I’m having trouble reconciling this, > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > While American culture’s tradition of monkey-human crossovers is pretty freakin’ racist, I know that there’s (for example) a Vietnamese cultural tradition that’s not racist. And [Girl Giant and the Monkey King](https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250240415/girlgiantandthemonkeyking) is tying into that tradition. I don’t think anyone suggests that author Van Hoang’s book has unpleasant resonances of minstrelsy. > > This is an issue with nuance to it, and it’s best approached by recognizing that nuance. Absolute declarations of “IT AIN’T RACIST” are just as foolish as a declaration that “THE CREATORS ARE SUPER RACIST” would be. with this, > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Your intent is 100% different from the racist’s intent. **But what you create comes out looking very similar.** And folks who are harmed by that stereotype? They might not be too happy about it. > > […] > > Does this mean that it’s cool to create cat-people, and much less cool to create monkey-people? > > **Yup**. > > “But that’s not fair!” you might say. “Why should racist stereotypes get to ruin my fun, when my fun isn’t racist?” > > I sympathize with this objection to the tune of a very tiny violin. ETA: Would there be a problem with a Vanara bard resembling African-American minstrel shows? Would African/jungle inspired accoutrements reinforce the stereotype that Black people are primitive like monkeys? Would a monk’s reluctance to use blades over staves or fists reinforce the stereotype of African society being more primitive? Would a thief or mischievous character trait reinforce the stereotype of Black people being theivous or evil? A Vanera oracle from a treetop village in the jungle - though culturally speaking this is inspired by jungles of SE Asia - does that reinforce the stereotype that Africans or Black Carribeans are pagans? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/709 "2022-09-10T22:43:13Z")
Paganism is bad, now? And are there any D&D religions that are not “pagan”? As for Vietnam, Vietnamese have plenty of their own issues, which do not include knowing or caring about what may be perceived as racist _in America_ so you can’t really compare Vietnamese books to an American product like D&D. However, the author of that children’s book is American. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/710 "2022-09-10T23:54:14Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > ETA: Would there be a problem with a Vanara bard resembling African-American minstrel shows? Would African/jungle inspired accoutrements reinforce the stereotype that Black people are primitive like monkeys? Would a monk’s reluctance to use blades over staves or fists reinforce the stereotype of African society being more primitive? Would a thief or mischievous character trait reinforce the stereotype of Black people being theivous or evil? A Vanera oracle from a treetop village in the jungle - though culturally speaking this is inspired by jungles of SE Asia - does that reinforce the stereotype that Africans or Black Carribeans are pagans? Nah, sorry. After your repeated misunderstandings, I will decline to be your, pardon the expression, dancing monkey. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2022, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/711 "2022-09-11T01:33:51Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > As for Vietnam, Vietnamese have plenty of their own issues, which do not include knowing or caring about what may be perceived as racist _in America_ so you can’t really compare Vietnamese books to an American product like D&D. However, the author of that children’s book is American. I’m really not sure what your point is here, but [Van Hoang was born in Vietnam and is an immigrant to the US](https://www.kirkusreviews.com/news-and-features/articles/van-hoang-girl-giant-monkey-kinginterview/). She clearly is writing about Vietnamese mythology from an insider’s perspective. Otherwise, I think what you’re saying is not especially related to the reason I used that book as an example. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2022, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/712 "2022-09-11T02:00:11Z")
> [@Retzbu\_Tox](#): > > In the new version, _ **Deadlands: The Weird West** _, the timeline has been altered so that the Confederacy _ **did** _ lose, although history has still played out somewhat differently. The United States does not control all of the western territories. The game continues to have some independent Native American nations and the Mormon state of Deseret. I consider Deadlands to be one of the best RPGs from the 1990s, and from the beginning I disliked the continued existence of the CSA. I can swallow a lot of aburdities including magic, weird science, and god-like beings from another dimension that feed on our fears, but I could not buy into the premise that the CSA was still around by 1876. And, honestly, the “cold war” between the USA and CSA never really featured in any game of Deadlands I ran. There are tons of wild west adventures you can have without any need for the CSA to be in existence. But yeah, they changed it because the game as originally envisioned played into the whole Lost Cause myth as they CSA abandoned slavery by 1876. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2022, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/713 "2022-09-11T02:13:35Z")
An insider’s perspective but also equipped to know if that book transgresses any sensibilities, which presumably it does not. There are many stories and myths featuring monkey characters and even monkey gods. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2022, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/714 "2022-09-11T02:49:44Z")
I’m still confused. Are you agreeing with me? It sounds like you’re agreeing with the post I originally wrote about the book. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2022, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/715 "2022-09-11T12:36:26Z")
I do agree with you. I suppose that if someone really insisted on finding something offensive about those hundreds-of-years-old characters they could do it, though. Maybe they could come up with something like when the Monkey King steals fruit and wine from some other gods—but, no matter what, it is risible to suggest that any of these stories incorporate American racism of hundreds of years later or have anything to do with minstrel theatre. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2022, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/716 "2022-09-11T15:36:14Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > it is risible to suggest that any of these stories incorporate American racism of hundreds of years later or have anything to do with minstrel theatre. Sure - but who has done that? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2022, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/717 "2022-09-11T15:54:20Z")
There is some suspicion that Hanuman and the monkey people in Hindu mythology might have grown out of _ancient Indian_ racism and genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2022, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/718 "2022-09-11T15:56:38Z")
I agree that there are definitely other traditions of monkey-men (such as the Chinese story of the Monkey King) and that these don’t necessarily have the same baggage as Western depictions of monkey-men, although when Western creators depict them you can certainly run the risk of bringing our own baggage into the story we tell, or of going the other way and being insensitive to Chinese culture. The developers of Total War: Warhammer (and I assume eventually the actual Warhammer tabletop game, though it looks like the video hame will get there first) are hinting that they’ll be bringing out a faction based on the Monkey King, so it will be interesting to see how they handle this depiction in today’s day and age. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2022, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/719 "2022-09-11T16:00:53Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I agree that there are definitely other traditions of monkey-men (such as the Chinese story of the Monkey King) and that these don’t necessarily have the same baggage as Western depictions of monkey-men, although when Western creators depict them you can certainly run the risk of bringing our own baggage into the story we tell, or of going the other way and being insensitive to Chinese culture. Yup–which is why I mentioned Hoang’s book. I’ve got a children’s book on my back burner, a rhymed trickster story about the Monkey King and how he fools a farmer out of a wheelbarrow full of bananas. It’s a story I told my daughters when they were kids, and I’ve played for years off and on with completing it as a long poem that could be illustrated. If I ever do, I’ll need to be really careful to avoid either treating other cultures as funny exotics, or of the protagonist trickster turning into an unintentional stereotype. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2022, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/720 "2022-09-11T16:12:35Z")
Note that D&D materials are well known for throwing in material from all sorts of traditions, legends, and literature, so, leaving monkey gods aside for a moment, you could have Zeus, Yahweh, Loki, Osiris, Sauron, Tiamat, and the Lady of Pain besides Vecna and whomever. I do not know how offensive that gets, but it is certainly unoriginal compared to making up your own fictional religions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114.md?page=37)