# D & D got woke and that's good because you should have all been playing that way (or not if you didn't prefer)) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** rpg-dnd-wargames\ **Created:** [February 17, 2021, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114 "2021-02-17T10:36:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 38
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/741 "2022-09-12T10:46:06Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > _My_ point is that it you can’t say Japan _doesn’t_ have a history of colonization or Western oppression, and so it’s OK for Westerners to use Japanese tropes anyway you like in D&D, guilt-free. Sure, they didn’t have Opium Wars or Great Mutinies, but they didn’t willingly embrace the West, either. I definitely agree with that larger point. Post-WWII Japan, if I understand correctly, got to experience some pretty intense cultural colonization by the west; and the commodification of ninjas and samurai is not universally appreciated by folks in Japan. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/742 "2022-09-12T11:58:27Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Replace “English” for “Japanese” and “Romantic Medievalism” for “Orientalism”, and you’ve got bog-standard D&D. While OA does have its flaws, I’ll defend vehemently. TSR actually had Asians (all Japanese I think) look over the book and give their feedback which was a very uncommon practice at the time, and as you point out and it’s not as if D&D is an accurate representation of any point in Europe so we shouldn’t expect that from OA. Other than the name, it’s not even close to the most embarrassingly racist thing TSR produced in the 1980s. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/743 "2022-09-12T12:06:02Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I definitely agree with that larger point. Post-WWII Japan, if I understand correctly, got to experience some pretty intense cultural colonization by the west; and the commodification of ninjas and samurai is not universally appreciated by folks in Japan. What is universally appreciated by anyone? The fact of the matter is that plenty of Japanese people have been perfectly happy to engage in cultural exchanges with other countries. Nobody forced Japanese movie producers to send us Seven Samurai, Godzilla, Speed Racer, Macross, etc., etc., etc. Many, many years ago, I saw a news story showing a bunch of middle aged Japanese guys who each week dressed up like American cowboys and went to their local watering hole to watch _Rawhide._ One of the cosplayers(?) they interviewed said that _Rawhide_ was a very Japanese show because when there was a problem all the characters worked together to solve it. Given that Americans freely sent Japan episodes of _Rawhide_ to watch, in addition to many other cowboy movies, television shows, and maybe even literature, I can’t exactly get upset about any cultural appropriation on their part. Likewise, given all the stuff Japan has sent to the United States, I don’t expect them to get upset if we do something with ninjas. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/744 "2022-09-12T14:26:37Z")
Okay, let me rephrase. The immoral and genocidal European colonial enterprise was harmed by the Perry expedition in the long term, and that was a good thing, for Japan and the world. And I agree with your points. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/745 "2022-09-12T14:35:57Z")
I am not really familiar with Japanese role-playing games/scenarios, but surely some of them take place in a pseudo-European medieval setting, pseudo feudal Japanese/Chinese setting, etc as well, and it would be interesting to see side-by-side comparisons, as it were, of the depiction of orcs, ninjas, nomads, and so forth compared to their counterparts in American-published games. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/746 "2022-09-12T15:05:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > and that was a good thing, for Japan and the world. Not so great for Manchuria, maybe. But I agree with the broader point that the **forcible and self-serving** industrialization of Japan by western powers was probably better - from a Japanese perspective - than a more straightforward conquest would’ve been. But these are icky “what ifs?” to consider and Dibble’s right that it’s a legitimate slippery slope to be wary of. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2022, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/747 "2022-09-13T23:53:11Z")
I just found out that the three sub-types of halflings I recall from AD&D—the mainstream hairfoots, and the two variations of stouts and tallfellows—is now just two: _light_foots and stouts. Anyone know the history behind that change? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2022, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/748 "2022-09-13T23:57:05Z")
I’m upset by the change. I’m eager to be angry at the explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2022, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/749 "2022-09-13T23:57:50Z")
Ya got me! I’m just looking for a reason to hit something!! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2022, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/750 "2022-09-14T00:01:59Z")
Probably something to do with CRT.\* \*Critical Roll Theory. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2022, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/751 "2022-09-14T00:35:49Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I just found out that the three sub-types of halflings I recall from AD&D—the mainstream hairfoots, and the two variations of stouts and tallfellows—is now just two: _light_foots and stouts. Anyone know the history behind that change? I dunno, but halflings in my world consider that term a racist slur, as it implies that humans are right-sized and halflings are only half of the right-sized people. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2022, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/752 "2022-09-14T01:01:45Z")
When I get around to running a campaign, all the halflings were be loving charicatures of Jews. I defy you to look at a picture of my parents (or 95% of my family tree) and tell me these people are not Hobbits. The Shire is not lost! It’s in Florida! Everything fits except for the ‘love of pipeweed’ bit. Note that -le or -la is the familiar diminutive in Yiddish. So instead of Yon Dall Ah, the hobbits worship ‘Yon Da La’. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2022, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/753 "2022-09-14T01:05:15Z")
Imagining all the worshippers singing a hymn _Help me Yon Da Help help me Yon Da_ ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2022, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/754 "2022-09-14T11:58:14Z")
I don’t know the reason, but there are other published “subraces” for 5th ed. - ghostwise, lotusden and mark of healing and mark of hospitality. Back in the day, Dark Sun halflings were fun. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2022, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/755 "2022-09-14T13:27:03Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I don’t know the reason, but there are other published “subraces” for 5th ed. - ghostwise, lotusden and mark of healing and mark of hospitality. Ghostwise are an isolated “barbarian” halfling tribe from the Forgotten Realms (like the Dark Sun halflings without the cannibalism\*). Lotusden are a Critical Role subrace, and the two “mark” halflings are from Eberron. [\*] And yes, I know that DS halflings didn’t eat other halflings; I’m using the term in to refer to people who eat people, no matter their species. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2022, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/756 "2022-09-14T13:46:41Z")
Even worse, I think the current 5.5e test documents only have a single halfling race – basically Lightfoot but I don’t remember if they explicitly call them that. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2022, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/757 "2022-09-14T14:14:28Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Even worse, I don’t know that I would call any of the systems “worse.” I’m just curious about the reasons for the changes. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2022, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/758 "2022-09-14T14:34:06Z")
Holy Shit. WOTC may have unintentionally allowed a racist trope to slip through, but they’re certainly fighting the good fight against outright, unabashed racism in gaming. Someone upthread mentioned playing Star Frontiers. I doubt they’re going to want to play the reboot (if it doesn’t get blocked): > **[Wizards Of the Coast Requests Injunction Against Publication Of TSR's Racist...](https://www.thegamer.com/wizards-of-the-coast-injunction-tsr-racist-star-frontiers-new-genesis/)** > > Hopefully, this will be the end of this highly racist game. > The game actually includes a “Negro sub race”, describing them as a “Tall thick bodied dark skinned brown-eyed race with large strength average intelligence ALL Attributes are in the 10+ range except intelligence which is maximum a +9”. And, of course, the game’s Nordic race – notably not a sub race – has “exceptional attributes and powers ALL attributes are in the 13+ range.” There’s “ooh, looks kinda minstrel-adjacent, that’s unfortunate”, and then there’s “what RPG do they play in the basement of _The Daily Stormer_”-level racism. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2022, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/759 "2022-09-14T14:39:06Z")
Why in the name of almighty _fuck_ did WotC let the TSR trademark expire? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2022, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/760 "2022-09-14T14:55:42Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > WOTC may have unintentionally allowed a racist trope to slip through, but they’re certainly fighting the good fight against outright, unabashed racism in gaming. Someone upthread mentioned playing Star Frontiers. I doubt they’re going to want to play the reboot (if it doesn’t get blocked): NuTSR, as some people people call them, are an endless source of bemusement. I honestly have no idea what they’re thinking and what they hope to accomplish. They like to make claims that they’re being bullied by big bad WotC and they’ve got Ernie Gygax attached to them somehow. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114.md?page=37) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114.md?page=39)