# D & D got woke and that's good because you should have all been playing that way (or not if you didn't prefer)) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** rpg-dnd-wargames\ **Created:** [February 17, 2021, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114 "2021-02-17T10:36:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 41
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/801 "2022-09-28T13:28:50Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > To be fair, the book has 20 different authors, and I didn’t read all of the adventures (mostly just a few that were close to the level range I wanted, plus the introductory material). Some of them probably were better. But the ones I read had all of the significant NPCs either male or unspecified. Do you include deliberately agender (using they/them pronouns) NPCs in “unspecificed”? Otherwise you were extremely “unlucky” in the sampling you got, and even if you did it is still clear you did not end up with a representative sample of the adventures in the book. As a whole the book has a lot more female and agender representation than any other official collection. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/802 "2022-09-28T21:38:54Z")
I didn’t count NPCs that aren’t “people”, like mindless golems and animals. The adventures I looked through before didn’t include any nonbinary people (at least, none specified), though I did notice at least one on flipping through some of the other sections, in response to previous comments. The other 5th edition D&D module I’m familiar with, Waterdeep: Dragon Heist, also includes at least one nonbinary person and at least three gay individuals (one couple and one whose partner recently died). Two of the three most powerful friendly NPCs are female, though women are less well-represented among the villains: The Big Bad is either one of two males, an asexual agendered monster, or a married couple. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2022, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/803 "2022-10-18T18:36:10Z")
All the excitement about the Hadozee being racist as they are monkeys (and monkeys have been used by bigots as a racist thing in the past) and capering like Minstrels- I finally read the actual new WotC book where that illustration was from. Hadozee are descended from flying squirrels, not monkeys. They are rodents, not primates. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2022, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/804 "2022-10-18T20:16:18Z")
You think this is some kind of startling new information? They’ve been described as simian/flying squirrel hybrids since forever. The offensive images weren’t _drawn_ like rodents, though. Squirrels don’t have prehensile feet, monkeys do. Squirrels don’t have longer canines and shorter incisors, monkeys do. So what this has to do with _anything_ is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/805 "2022-10-19T01:41:50Z")
Thankfully, caricatures of rodents have never been used by bigots as a bigoted thing in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/806 "2022-10-19T01:43:08Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > They are rodents, not primates. Gosh. That fixes everything. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2022, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/807 "2022-10-20T19:35:16Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > All the excitement about the Hadozee being racist as they are monkeys (and monkeys have been used by bigots as a racist thing in the past) and capering like Minstrels- I finally read the actual new WotC book where that illustration was from. Hadozee are descended from flying squirrels, not monkeys. They are rodents, not primates. Looking at [that artwork](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/597), I’m not sure the artist had read the book before drawing the hadozee–and if they had, I’m not sure they’ve ever seen a flying squirrel (or squirrel, or rodent) before. It does, at least, explain those flaps, which I thought were weird clothing accessories. Knowing that they’re semidetached furry fleshy flaps is deeply unsettling. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2022, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/808 "2022-10-20T20:09:51Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Looking at [that artwork](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/597), I’m not sure the artist had read the book before drawing the hadozee–and if they had, I’m not sure they’ve ever seen a flying squirrel (or squirrel, or rodent) before. It does, at least, explain those flaps, which I thought were weird clothing accessories. Knowing that they’re semidetached furry fleshy flaps is deeply unsettling. I concur they are weird, but actually those hind feet do look somewhat like squirrel feet (I had a pet squirrel once). The face is squirrel like, and so are the ears. No tails? The teeth are _all_ wrong. Note the muzzle on the center one. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2022, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/809 "2022-10-20T20:54:34Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > those hind feet do look somewhat like squirrel feet No, they don’t. Squirrel feet don’t have opposable digits like those. Monkeys do. > [@DrDeth](#): > > The face is squirrel like No, it isn’t. > [@DrDeth](#): > > I had a pet squirrel once Had it run nose-first into a wall at full speed, before you got it? Like, several times? > [@DrDeth](#): > > so are the ears No, they are not. _Especially_ the ears on the minstrel character. > [@DrDeth](#): > > No tails? Yeah - like an ape. And unlike tree squirrels and _especially_ flying squirrels, who can’t really function well without theirs. > [@DrDeth](#): > > The teeth are _all_ wrong. As was already said. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Note the muzzle on the center one. What, the one with the rounded, _not_ pointy face and the nose right up between the eyes, like a monkey, as opposed to at the end where a squirrel has theirs? _That_ centre one? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2022, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/810 "2022-10-20T21:20:58Z")
For god’s sake. Here’s what squirrel humanoids look like in fantasy art: [![](https://dwarffortresswiki.org/images/c/c1/Red_squirrel_man.jpg) ](https://dwarffortresswiki.org/images/c/c1/Red_squirrel_man.jpg) [![](https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/029/433/069/large/christina-lassheikki-squire-squirrel.jpg?1597526608) ](https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/029/433/069/large/christina-lassheikki-squire-squirrel.jpg?1597526608) [![](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/dd/86/3e/dd863e5c15640c33da1c48d4bd404e44.jpg) ](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/dd/86/3e/dd863e5c15640c33da1c48d4bd404e44.jpg) It’s not difficult to draw a squirrel-based humanoid. You got yer teeth, yer tail, yer nose, and yer ear. Claiming that the hadozee are based on squirrels instead of monkeys is a preposterous indictment of the artist. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2022, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/811 "2022-10-20T21:30:59Z")
The scifi novel Spacepaw (a fun read) is about a planet inhabited by sentient beings who look almost exactly like large earth bears. My copy had a painting of a gorilla on the cover. It may say in the text that Hadozee evolved from squirrels. But, those are clearly apes in the illustrations. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2022, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/812 "2022-10-20T21:33:43Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, they don’t. Squirrel feet don’t have opposable digits like those. Monkeys do. Do Hippopotamuses have opposable digits? Cats? Wolves? Lizards? Come now, you claim you play D&D, you have to know all the anthropomorphic animal PC races have opposable digits. Your point here invalidates your arguments. > [@MrDibble](#): > > No, they are not. _Especially_ the ears on the minstrel character. Yes they are. And it is a BARD, not a minstrel. You should know that. Calling it a “minstrel” is poisoning the well, and a poor debating trick. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Yeah - like an ape Now it is an ape, not a monkey? How many apes have wing flaps? They are meant to be a descendant from a race of flying squirrels. You also should _know_ that WotC is a very liberal company, and aren’t sneaking in hidden racist dog whistle pictures. Stop trying to find dirty pictures in the ice cubes, eh? Look, you are wrong here. Stop digging deeper (which I am a master of , so mea culpa on that), and just do a Emily Litella. Not that early D&D was in any way woke, I will cheerfully admit. A product of it’s time. Almost every PC character was white, nearly every female was scantily clad. But WotC has “woken” up- and is now even getting castigating in game reviews for being “too woke.” And certainly there is clear racism in FRPs, as that Ernie Gygax game so obviously shows. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2022, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/813 "2022-10-20T21:35:18Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Look, you are wrong here. You’ve failed to present a compelling argument that this is the case. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2022, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/814 "2022-10-20T21:36:01Z")
For the record, I’m on the ‘intentionally or not, it was racist’ side. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2022, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/815 "2022-10-20T21:38:32Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But WotC has “woken” up- and is now even getting castigating in game reviews for being “too woke.” This doesn’t mean much. If Adolf Hitler was alive today some people would insist that he is far too woke. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2022, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/816 "2022-10-20T22:03:59Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Now it is an ape, not a monkey? > > How many apes have wing flaps? > > They are meant to be a descendant from a race of flying squirrels. > > You also should _know_ that WotC is a very liberal company, and aren’t sneaking in hidden racist dog whistle pictures. Stop trying to find dirty pictures in the ice cubes, eh? > > Look, you are wrong here. You have _got_ to be freaking kidding here. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2022, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/817 "2022-10-20T22:22:44Z")
My favorite part is “no tails?” as if the lack of tails means the artist meant to draw a squirrel-person, not a monkey-person, because when you think of squirrels, nobody thinks of the tail. The “wing-flaps” is my second favorite part, because those wing-flaps are some Clive Barker level body-horror. Are there enormous arteries going through those tiny wrist-ropes? Are there bones in them? Muscles? Do they _twitch_? _shudder_ ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2022, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/818 "2022-10-20T22:28:08Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > > [@DrDeth](#): > > > > Now it is an ape, not a monkey? > > > > How many apes have wing flaps? > > > > They are meant to be a descendant from a race of flying squirrels. > > > > You also should _know_ that WotC is a very liberal company, and aren’t sneaking in hidden racist dog whistle pictures. Stop trying to find dirty pictures in the ice cubes, eh? > > > > Look, you are wrong here. > > You have _got_ to be freaking kidding here. Yeah. No one, i mean no one, draws a squirrel that doesn’t have a big fluffy tail. That’s like drawing a rabbit without ears. Or a turtle without a shell. The artist drew monkeys. With non-functional wing-flaps that look like an article of clothing. ---
**Author:** ![CaveMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cavemike/32/16379_2.png) [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2022, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/819 "2022-10-20T23:00:55Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I finally read the actual new WotC book where that illustration was from. Hadozee are descended from flying squirrels, not monkeys. They are rodents, not primates. That may be the case in the book you read, but that’s not been the historical case for Hadozee, or the Star Frontiers Yazarians they were based on. They were consistently described with terms like simian, chimpanzee, monkey, or ape. The membranes between their arms may be based on flying squirrels, but that it the extent of the squirrel influence. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2022, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/820 "2022-10-21T02:15:51Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > No one, i mean no one, draws a squirrel that doesn’t have a big fluffy tail. Or monkeys with no tails either? So, there are two possibilities: 1. WotC, a well known liberal company that has been attacked as being “woke” had it’s house artist deliberately draw “minstrel monkeys” hieing back to the bad of old days of the “Negro Minstrel shows” of 150 years ago, because secretly they have been infiltrated by the Proud Boys and this is a racist dog whistle. OR 1. WotC, a well known liberal company that has been attacked as being “woke” had it’s house artist draw something called a Hadozee, which they say are descended from a race of flying squirrels. The drawings really do not look much like flying squirrels, and you can tell as they are not wear leather flying helmets. Which one is more likely? Well, we have a logical tool here, this razor I found- it has _“property of William of Ockham”_ inscribed on it. Use it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114.md?page=40) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114.md?page=42)