# D & D got woke and that's good because you should have all been playing that way (or not if you didn't prefer)) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** rpg-dnd-wargames\ **Created:** [February 17, 2021, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114 "2021-02-17T10:36:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 42
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2022, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/821 "2022-10-21T02:24:05Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Or monkeys with no tails either? Real apes have no tails. That’s not at all unusual. As for your two options, I don’t think anyone is claiming that WotC deliberately went about trying to create a racist image. Rather, the complaint is that they carelessly allowed their artist to make an illustration that reflects some unfortunate minstrel stereotypes. So, your #2, except not only do the images not look like flying squirrels, they look like capering monkeys. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2022, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/822 "2022-10-21T02:30:52Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Real apes have no tails. That’s not at all unusual. True, but they were accused of being _minstrel monkeys_ not bardic apes. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > Rather, the complaint is that they carelessly allowed their artist to make an illustration that reflects some unfortunate minstrel stereotypes. So, it is an accident? Then what’s the beef? No one was racist, no one was a bigot, no one deliberately did a image that others can misconstrue. Geez, you mean the staff at WotC are humans that make a mistake once in a while? And they apologized even. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2022, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/823 "2022-10-21T04:48:30Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Come now, you claim you play D&D, you have to know all the anthropomorphic animal PC races have opposable digits. On their _feet_? > [@DrDeth](#): > > Your point here invalidates your arguments. I don’t think so, no. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes they are. No, they’re not. They’re not pointed at all, they’re lower down on the side of the head, not furry, have lobes - in what way are they at all like a squirrel’s, please? > [@](#): > > And it is a BARD, not a minstrel. Yet you knew _exactly_ which one I was talking about. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Calling it a “minstrel” is poisoning the well, and a poor debating trick. I’m not _debating_ you. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Now it is an ape, not a monkey? Apes _are_ monkeys. Anyone who says different has failed cladistics. > [@DrDeth](#): > > How many apes have wing flaps? None. What’s your point? No flying squirrel has _patagia_ like that, either. > [@DrDeth](#): > > They are meant to be a descendant from a race of flying squirrels. Sure, _now_. > [@DrDeth](#): > > You also should _know_ that WotC is a very liberal company, and aren’t sneaking in hidden racist dog whistle pictures Strawman argument is full of straw. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Look, you are wrong here. Stop digging deeper Are you talking to a mirror? > [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, we have a logical tool here, this razor I found- it has _“property of William of Ockham”_ inscribed on it. People who don’t recognize a false dichotomy when they propose one shouldn’t try and play with sharp instruments. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2022, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/824 "2022-10-21T05:14:46Z")
BTW, this is the [Hadozee description](https://boundingintocomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/2022.09.07-03.22-boundingintocomics-63180e722824e.jpg) from OG Spelljammer. The word “ape” is all over it. Hell, it _starts_ ‘ **Called “deck apes”, hadozee are indeed ape-like** ’ This is the [one from the controversial release](https://boundingintocomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/2022.09.07-03.36-boundingintocomics-631811bd8e328.jpg) - I see exactly zero use of the word “flying squirrel” there. So I’m going to retract this: > [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@DrDeth](#): > > > > They are meant to be a descendant from a race of flying squirrels. > > Sure, _now_. and say “Cite?” Oh, and this: > [@DrDeth](#): > > had it’s house artist draw I’m unaware that WotC had a stable of _in_-house artists for things like this, as far as I was aware they just used freelancers. Perhaps you’d care to enlighten me by giving this “house artist”[sic] a name? Since you are buds with all the WotC contributors and all. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2022, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/825 "2022-10-21T10:56:25Z")
Good catch, @MrDibble! Here’s his original claim–and given how this thread has gone, I feel collectively ashamed that none of us asked him to prove this claim in the first place. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Hadozee are descended from flying squirrels, not monkeys. They are rodents, not primates. @DrDeth, on what are you basing this categorical claim? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2022, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/826 "2022-10-21T12:05:59Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > True, but they were accused of being _minstrel monkeys_ not bardic apes. Becauseif there’s one thing racists are known for, it is their strict devotion to scientific accuracy. > [@DrDeth](#): > > So, it is an accident? Then what’s the beef? No one was racist, no one was a bigot, no one deliberately did a image that others can misconstrue. Geez, you mean the staff at WotC are humans that make a mistake once in a while? And they apologized even. When you do something racist by mistake, the civilized thing to do is to apologize and try to do better in the future, like WOTC did. You don’t insist that you’ve done nothing wrong and dig your head in the sand, like you’ve been doing. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2022, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/827 "2022-10-21T12:07:00Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Apes _are_ monkeys. Anyone who says different has failed cladistics. I’m not gonna just sit here, getting lectured on cladistics by a _fish_! ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2022, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/828 "2022-10-21T12:33:17Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > When you do something racist by mistake, the civilized thing to do is to apologize and try to do better in the future, like WOTC did. DrDeth is either incapable of understanding the concept and effect of implicit bias, or he rejects its existence. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2022, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/829 "2022-10-21T12:43:55Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > When you do something racist by mistake, the civilized thing to do is to apologize and try to do better in the future, like WOTC did. You don’t insist that you’ve done nothing wrong and dig your head in the sand, like you’ve been doing This. WofC has not been accused of nafarious evil in this thread. It’s been accused of inadvertent racism due to implicit bias. Something we should all strive to recognize and avoid. Something we should not strenuously defend, which seems to be your take. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2022, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/830 "2022-10-21T12:49:04Z")
@puzzlegal, going to assume the “your” in “your take” there is @DrDeth not @Babale ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2022, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/831 "2022-10-21T12:50:11Z")
Absolutely. I was agreeing with @Babale in their critique of @DrDeth’s stance here. Sorry if that’s unclear. I’m bad at pronouns. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2022, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/832 "2022-10-21T12:50:55Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I’m not gonna just sit here, getting lectured on cladistics by a _fish_! 🦈 ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2022, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/833 "2022-10-21T17:20:26Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > WofC has not been accused of nafarious evil in this thread. It’s been accused of inadvertent racism due to implicit bias. Something we should all strive to recognize and avoid. Something we should not strenuously defend, which seems to be your take. Exactly this and I am not sure how it isn’t obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2022, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/834 "2022-10-21T17:30:43Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > WofC has not been accused of nafarious evil in this thread. It’s been accused of inadvertent racism due to implicit bias. He knows this. It’s been explained over and over. Just quoting _myself_: > [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > I don’t see a need to attribute this to malice or even stupidity. This is precisely how a system uses inertia and history to reinforce itself. Some oldschool gamer wrote it, another oldschool gamer edited it, another oldschool gamer approved it. > [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > If it was obvious to everyone who sees it, I doubt it would’ve made it into the book in the first place. WotC is definitely trying to phase out problematic content, but some baked-in stuff will inevitably make it through. The wider world will point it out, light will shine on the issue, WotC will fix it, and the world will be just a tiny little bit better. And so it goes. > [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Nobody in this thread is saying, I don’t think, that the image is explicitly racist. Nobody is claiming that the artist was chuckling under his breath and using the n-word while he drew it. If anybody is claiming it, I’ve already expressed my own doubt that it was purposeful. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2022, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/835 "2022-10-21T17:42:40Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > WofC has not been accused of nafarious evil in this thread. It’s been accused of inadvertent racism due to implicit bias. Something we should all strive to recognize and avoid. Something we should not strenuously defend, which seems to be your take. > > Exactly this and I am not sure how it isn’t obvious. > [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > He knows this. It’s been explained over and over. Just quoting _myself_: He is one of the many people in our society who does not believe there is any such thing as inherent or systemic racism. If you can’t show that this wasn’t done by Wizards of the Coast or its employees with the specific knowledge and intent that it be racist, then, from his point of view, the rest of us should just sit down and shut up because no racism here. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2022, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/836 "2022-10-21T19:28:45Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > He is one of the many people in our society who does not believe there is any such thing as inherent or systemic racism. If you can’t show that this wasn’t done by Wizards of the Coast or its employees with the specific knowledge and intent that it be racist, then, from his point of view, the rest of us should just sit down and shut up because no racism here. I mean, that’s part of it–but there’s also this ludicrous claim that they’re flying squirrel ergo not racist, which is not a claim that can be made, or taken, seriously, even by a bunch of hopeless nerds like anyone still discussing the issue. One thing that happens, when possible racism is pointed out, is that others get hyperdefensive, and start looking for any possible explanation for why there can’t possibly be racism in the thing they like. They’ll DARVO (deny, attack, reverse victim and offender), claiming that whoever pointed out the racism is the real racist. They’ll come up with ridiculous theories, pull in irrelevancies, claim authority where they have none. They’ll do anything rather than admit that a problem might exist. Going forward I’m going to call this the “flying squirrel defense,” in honor of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2022, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/837 "2022-11-12T05:47:54Z")
Looks like WotC are taking lessons learned [to heart](https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1375-leveling-up-our-creative-process-learnings-from). Good. _“every word, illustration, and map must be reviewed by multiple outside cultural consultants”_ _The new inclusion-review process applies to not only products in development but also reprints_ > **[D&D will use cultural consultants to prevent racist content in all of its...](https://www.polygon.com/23451803/dnd-cultural-consultants-vetting-spelljammer-racism)** > > ‘Every word, illustration, and map’ will be reviewed at multiple points in the process ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2022, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/838 "2022-11-12T11:48:06Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Looks like WotC are taking lessons learned [to heart](https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1375-leveling-up-our-creative-process-learnings-from). Good. Sometimes the Free Market DOES work! Good job WOTC, and good job community for demanding this ---
**Author:** ![CaveMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cavemike/32/16379_2.png) [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2022, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/839 "2022-11-12T16:13:57Z")
The creator of Gloomhaven went through a similar process last year for the upcoming expansion, Frosthaven. He lays out his motivation and experience with the process in a blog post. His concerns weren’t just with biases in the story, races, and characters, but also the requirement the characters support those biases in order to progress. > [@](#): > > If you look at [the history of Frosthaven](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/frosthaven/frosthaven/posts/2815244)I wrote during the Kickstarter, you may notice the religiously fueled colonialism vibes running rampant through it. This itself isn’t an issue. This is how the main human nation behaves in this fantasy reality. But I’ve since become uncomfortable with how the story written in that update forces the player to opt in and become complicit in this behavior without choice. Some people may not be comfortable with that. Here is the blog post for anyone that is interested: [https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/frosthaven/frosthaven/posts/3185807](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/frosthaven/frosthaven/posts/3185807) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2022, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/840 "2022-11-12T16:17:19Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Sometimes the Free Market DOES work! Argle garble woke capitalism argle bargle hive mind. But yeah, this is exactly how it should be. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114.md?page=41) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114.md?page=43)