# D & D got woke and that's good because you should have all been playing that way (or not if you didn't prefer)) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** rpg-dnd-wargames\ **Created:** [February 17, 2021, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114 "2021-02-17T10:36:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 46
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2022, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/901 "2022-11-22T00:58:48Z")
I think it’s a pretty cool idea. I lean more toward the sandbox style rather than the fully pre-constructed story line. I also like the idea of having a vast cast of characters, any of which might show on an evening. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2022, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/902 "2022-11-22T04:13:54Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It’s sort of in the name isn’t it? _Dungeons_ and Dragons What’s in a name? Very few of the “dungeons” in D&D are, in fact, anything of the sort. And I’ve played literally decades of continuous games without either a Gygax-style dungeon crawl or a dragon showing up. It must have been a dozen years from the last time we encountered a dragon to playing the 5th Ed starter _Dragon of Icespire Peak_. > [@octopus](#): > > Dungeon crawls are still a thing even in the most popular of MMOs MMOs aren’t necessarily a paragon of originality. > [@octopus](#): > > My guess as to the popularity of them is that slaying monsters and getting loot is a fun tactical exercise/fantasy for many players. I don’t doubt it. The people I play with want something different. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2022, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/903 "2022-12-02T00:24:49Z")
There’s been an announcement. The word “race” will be replaced by “species”. While I am glad a term that was (likely unintentionally) bigotted is being removed, I feel they could have found a better replacement. IMO The word species is too modern, too scientific and carries it’s own (non bigotted) baggage. I know I’ll be corrected if I’m wrong, but IIRC being of the same species means that two organisms can mate and reliably produce fertile offspring. Elves and humans can reliably mate and produce fertile offspring? Yes, they can. Are they the same species under D&D rules? No they are not. I’ve heard a lot of fans agreeing that Folk would be a better term. I’m with them. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2022, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/904 "2022-12-02T00:41:44Z")
Replacing “race” with “species” sounds much, much more racist, to me. I’ve always seen the D&D concept of “race” as emphasizing that all humans, no matter what our skin color or continent of origin, are all the same race, and if you want to see what a “different race” looks like, it’s much more different than different humans are from each other. And even with those actually-significant differences, all of the different races can still get along and work together. Referring to other people as different species, though, even if technically accurate (as it is in at least some cases in D&D), is literally dehumanizing, and has a long and sordid history among real-world racists. ---
**Author:** ![keeganst94](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a6a055/32.png) [@keeganst94](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/keeganst94)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2022, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/905 "2022-12-02T00:43:11Z")
That’s one of the most common definitions of species, and it’s the one familiar to most people because of its simplicity, but it’s not the end-all be-all people take it to be. There are many, many, many species that are in theory capable of interbreeding to produce viable offspring, but don’t due to geographical or behavioral separation. Even when species can and do interbreed, we still sometimes consider them separate - chimpanzees and bonobos can interbreed, for example, as can polar bears and grizzly bears. Humans also interbred with Neanderthals and Denisovans, and grizzly bears still carry cave bear DNA. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2022, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/906 "2022-12-02T02:03:14Z")
> [@keeganst94](#): > > That’s one of the most common definitions of species, and it’s the one familiar to most people because of its simplicity, but it’s not the end-all be-all people take it to be. And in a D&D world, a focus on common descent is a mistake. In some D&D worlds there could be two humans (same species) who are entirely unrelated to each other, because if you go far enough back they each descend from a different group of humans that was created from scratch by the gods. While, as you noted, you could be related by blood to elves and such. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2022, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/907 "2022-12-02T02:40:42Z")
The most commonly-used definition of “species” is that the creatures can and do routinely interbreed in the wild, meaning without human intervention. Which, awkwardly, means that it’s impossible to define “species” in terms of us, ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2022, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/908 "2022-12-02T05:29:11Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > The word “race” will be replaced by “species”. Good. > [@DocCathode](#): > > I feel they could have found a better replacement Possibly. But don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. And note that you’re applying scientific concepts of evolution to groups that can include machines, sentient rocks and beings made of planar energy. That doesn’t strike you as somewhat … _extra_? > [@DocCathode](#): > > I’ve heard a lot of fans agreeing that Folk would be a better term Sounds too quaint to my ears, but that’s a minor quibble. “Kind” works too, but also too biblical. “Lineage” and “heritage” and “stock” are also alternatives used by other games. They all share some of the baggage of “race”, though. The actual article linked to _already_ used what I consider the best alternative, though: “people”. “Playable peoples”, it said, but the “playable” isn’t needed. And it has a nice Tolkienesque flavour: _Learn now the lore of Living Creatures!_ _First name the four, the free peoples:_ > [@Chronos](#): > > literally dehumanizing They’re _literally_ not humans. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2022, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/909 "2022-12-02T05:44:14Z")
> [@keeganst94](#): > > Even when species can and do interbreed, we still sometimes consider them separate - chimpanzees and bonobos can interbreed, for example, as can polar bears and grizzly bears. Humans also interbred with Neanderthals and Denisovans, and grizzly bears still carry cave bear DNA. Once again, man tries to stuff nature into these neat, little boxes and she keeps climbing out. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2022, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/910 "2022-12-02T12:20:20Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The actual article linked to _already_ used what I consider the best alternative, though: “people”. “Playable peoples”, it said, but the “playable” isn’t needed. And it has a nice Tolkienesque flavour: Haven’t the Elvish people suffered enough!? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2022, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/911 "2022-12-02T13:50:27Z")
I’m fine with species. I don’t love it as a world-building term but I prefer it as a mechanical term to say “These are not humans, they don’t need to be treated as humans or with an eye towards human thoughts and sensibility”. Sure, call them folk or people or kin within the world so your realm’s prince isn’t awkwardly talking about the dwarf species like it’s 9th grade biology but, for game rules and clarity, species works fine for me. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2022, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/912 "2022-12-05T18:20:56Z")
I suspect you’re going to run into problems no matter what word you use to replace race. I also think in a few years we’ll be having a similiar discussion one why it’s necessary to replace species. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/913 "2022-12-06T03:58:53Z")
According to Nethack, to avoid cannibalism, you should not ever eat members of your own species, but, for example, if you are a human then eating, e.g., elves is totally fine (unless you are polymorphed into an elf…) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/914 "2022-12-06T06:21:39Z")
I don’t know who Nethack is, but I’ve always considered eating _any_ sentient creature to be an evil act, regardless of whether you happen to be the same species. A human eating an elf or an orc or a dragon is no better than a human eating another human. To quote _Guardians of the Galaxy_, “Normal people don’t even THINK about eating someone else”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/915 "2022-12-06T11:04:48Z")
What I said to Doc before about the perfect vs the good still applies. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/916 "2022-12-06T14:13:03Z")
That’s the problem, I don’t really see it as a good. It’s not an improvement and we’re going to be having the same conversation in the not too distant future. Not that it’s a hill I’m going to die on or anything. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/917 "2022-12-06T14:24:39Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I don’t know who Nethack is, but I’ve always considered eating _any_ sentient creature to be an evil act, regardless of whether you happen to be the same species. Heck, i won’t eat whale or elephant or monkey. Yeah, a d&d character that eats an elf, or an orc, is not a character my character wants to hang out with. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/918 "2022-12-06T14:27:14Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I don’t really see it as a good. It’s not an improvement My mileage varies quite considerably. It’s a great improvement. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/919 "2022-12-06T15:50:26Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > According to Nethack, to avoid cannibalism, you should not ever eat members of your own species, but, for example, if you are a human then eating, e.g., elves is totally fine (unless you are polymorphed into an elf…) Foodless atheist illiterate pacifist monk challenges only. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/920 "2022-12-06T16:04:52Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I don’t know who Nethack is, To answer your question, _Nethack_ is a dungeon adventure game, a descendant of _Rogue_ and _Hack_, with a history going back to UNIX in the 1980s. (Maybe earlier, that’s when I became aware of it.) It’s a game created by UNIX and D&D nerds, with a focus on details. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114.md?page=45) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114.md?page=47)