# D & D got woke and that's good because you should have all been playing that way (or not if you didn't prefer)) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** rpg-dnd-wargames\ **Created:** [February 17, 2021, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114 "2021-02-17T10:36:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 47
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/921 "2022-12-06T16:18:01Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > _Nethack_ is a dungeon adventure game, a descendant of _Rogue_ and _Hack_, My girlfriend is a big Hack fan. I have been trying to find a version that will run on a current PC. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/922 "2022-12-06T16:20:21Z")
_Folk, Kin,_ and _People_ all appeal to me because of their aesthetic. I just looked up the etymology of the word “species” (and realized my search was a Darwin title) and find it dates from the 1600s to describe biological categories. It doesn’t really match my D&D vibe as well as the other suggested words. That said, it’s way better than _race_. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/923 "2022-12-06T16:27:55Z")
Species doesn’t fit a fantasy vibe but I think it’s fine as a mechanics/rule term like hit points, armor class, experience levels or spell slots. Just like in-game people have their own more poetic way of describing those mechanics, so too with using different terms for species. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/924 "2022-12-06T16:35:52Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > > [@Pleonast](#): > > > > _Nethack_ is a dungeon adventure game, a descendant of _Rogue_ and _Hack_, > > My girlfriend is a big Hack fan. I have been trying to find a version that will run on a current PC. I forgot to link in my post: > **[NetHackWiki, the NetHack wiki](https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Main_Page)** > > This wiki was founded on 11 October 2005. We have 4,751 articles. Follow through to downloads. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/925 "2022-12-06T16:45:51Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > My girlfriend is a big Hack fan. I have been trying to find a version that will run on a current PC. Here ya go: > **[Save 25% on Vulture for NetHack on Steam](https://store.steampowered.com/app/341390/Vulture_for_NetHack/)** > > Vulture for NetHack is an isometric graphical interface for the roguelike engine: NetHack. This is basically NetHack turned vertical: > **[Save 65% on WazHack on Steam](https://store.steampowered.com/app/264160/WazHack/)** > > Time moves forward only when you do in the dungeons of WazHack. Think your way out of problems instead of just spamming 'attack' and 'drink healing potion'. Have you tried Crawl? > **[Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup](https://crawl.develz.org/)** ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/926 "2022-12-06T18:01:33Z")
Thanks for the suggestions everybody. But she doesn’t want a new game. She doesn’t even want NET Hack. She just wants the original Hack. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/927 "2022-12-06T18:09:27Z")
Have you tried virtualization in DOSBox? ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/928 "2022-12-06T18:11:33Z")
From the downloads page linked to before. 🙂 ftp://ftp.sunet.se/pub/games/nethack/Msdos/NH\_older Spoilered because it’s an FTP site that I can’t vouch for, but it claims to have “Old to ancient versions of Hack and NetHack for MS-DOS”. Now whether or not they can run on modern PC, I have no idea. But it’s a starting point. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/929 "2022-12-06T20:51:21Z")
Dosbox Hack at the Internet Archive (play online or download): > **[PC-Hack : Don Kneller : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive](https://archive.org/details/PCHackV3.601986DonKnellerAdventureRolePlayingRPG)** > >        HACK is a display oriented dungeons and dragons type game.  It is  similar in style to ROGUE played on UNIX(tm) systems but HACK is much  richer... To be clear, no one ever suggested that NetHack was “woke”. They just adapt material from wherever (D&D, Tolkien, Discworld, you name it) and have their own little jokes; if you ask for info on a monster or item it generally credits the source material. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/930 "2022-12-06T23:04:06Z")
Thank you ! **DPRK** I am in your debt! ---
**Author:** ![Pavelb1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/439d5e/32.png) [@Pavelb1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pavelb1)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2022, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/931 "2022-12-29T18:31:49Z")
But but “Circle of life…” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2022, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/932 "2022-12-29T23:12:48Z")
Has anyone tried out One D&D yet? What are the highlights? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2022, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/933 "2022-12-30T00:57:26Z")
There’s not much to try, yet. Just a bunch of options that you could integrate into your existing games. You can’t run a full game of the new edition yet. I’m probably going to be starting a new one in the next month or so and might integrate the character creation stuff. I like the way they’re doing feats now. I’ll report back. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2022, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/934 "2022-12-30T01:19:32Z")
So any rundown/opinion on the options thus far? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2022, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/935 "2022-12-30T01:27:48Z")
[I talked a bit about it here](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-d-d-the-upcoming-d-d-edition/), though it looks like another UA document has dropped since then. ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2023, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/936 "2023-01-03T00:04:35Z")
I fear that eurocentrism is hard baked into trad fantasy and having lilac orcs, some nice, aint enough. One way out is the “inverse colonialism” of “Fallen Empire” setting you can find at Dungeon Of Signs. > **[Fallen Empire - Rules of Setting Creation](http://dungeonofsigns.blogspot.com/2016/03/fallen-empire-rules-of-setting-creation.html?m=1)** > > SETTING RULES FOR FALLEN EMPIRE Thinking about settings and the generic assumptions of fantasy games and where I want to place "Fallen... The centre of the map is a decaying decadent senile Empire. Surrounding it are “normal” human societies. Adventurers are explorer-freebootes picking over the corpse of the empire for loot and lore. There are no natural humanoids or demihumans… but the empires mages used magic to make enhanced soldiers and servants ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2023, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/937 "2023-01-03T01:00:42Z")
> [@nicky](#): > > I fear that eurocentrism is hard baked into trad fantasy and having lilac orcs, some nice, aint enough. > > One way out is the “inverse colonialism” of “Fallen Empire” setting you can find at Dungeon Of Signs. I don’t think there’s anything necessarily wrong with the standard D&D setting tropes or even with more explicitly colonial ones, like in Eberron, so long as you’re taking a nuanced look at these ideas rather than simply making the ‘colonizers’ unquestioned good guys by default. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2023, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/938 "2023-01-03T01:05:46Z")
A story from PBS Newshour with some interesting perspectives: > **[How a new generation of gamers is pushing for inclusivity beyond the table](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/arts/how-a-new-generation-of-gamers-is-pushing-for-inclusivity-beyond-the-table)** > > The rules of Dungeons & Dragons were written by a racial essentialist. As the tabletop gaming community becomes more diverse, players and creators are trying to rewrite them. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2023, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/939 "2023-01-03T01:34:46Z")
> [@nicky](#): > > I fear that eurocentrism is hard baked into trad fantasy and having lilac orcs, some nice, aint enough. I think the Eurocentric nature of traditional fantasy is probably one of the main selling points of D&D as it makes it so easy for people to just jump right into the setting. Over the years D&D certainly had some good settings based on other parts of the world. There was Oriental Adventures back in 1985, Al-Qadim was released in 1992 and had an Arabian Nights vibe, and then Dark Sun in 1991 which had a Sumerian type setting with cannibal halflings. All three of them were critical successes at the time, but at least Dark Sun and Al-Qadim didn’t sell as well as one might have thought. But there were non-Eurocentric settings in third edition. The new edition of Oriental Adventures had a different setting based off the Legend of the Five Rings card game, and third party publishers released games set in the Middle East during biblical times, there were a few fantasy Africa settings, some Egypt sourcebooks, etc., etc., but I don’t know how good many of them were or how well they did. There was such a glut of d20 books during that period of time. I think the interest for non-Eurocentric fantasy settings is pretty low. It exists, but I don’t know if it’s worth it for WotC to pursue to a large degree. Hell, they barely do anything with settings these days. I don’t know if I’d want to release a setting based on somewhere outside of Europe for fear of a public relations disaster. Even if I hire the best sensitivity readers and experts, I’m not sure its worth the expense or the possibility of trouble. > [@Babale](#): > > I don’t think there’s anything necessarily wrong with the standard D&D setting tropes or even with more explicitly colonial ones, like in Eberron, so long as you’re taking a nuanced look at these ideas rather than simply making the ‘colonizers’ unquestioned good guys by default. I don’t know about you, but I’ve rarely expected a lot of nuance in any of my D&D games. They’ve always been rather simplistic good versus evil type adventures. In other games? Certainly. But I don’t think that’s what WotC is going for with D&D. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2023, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/940 "2023-01-03T01:38:35Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Dark Sun in 1991 which had a Sumerian type setting with cannibal halflings IIRC from my reading of the DS boxed set, it wasn’t so much Sumerian as Dune. Everything is more hostile and lethal and magic is shunned in favor of psionics. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114.md?page=46) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114.md?page=48)