# D & D got woke and that's good because you should have all been playing that way (or not if you didn't prefer)) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** rpg-dnd-wargames\ **Created:** [February 17, 2021, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114 "2021-02-17T10:36:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 49
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2023, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/961 "2023-01-04T14:00:31Z")
Something like this: [![](https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/019/560/909/large/tooth-wu-bodezhimenf.jpg?1564038225) ](https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/019/560/909/large/tooth-wu-bodezhimenf.jpg?1564038225) ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2023, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/962 "2023-01-04T14:22:06Z")
[![](https://live.staticflickr.com/3247/2720124102_79b5e4557b_z.jpg) ](https://live.staticflickr.com/3247/2720124102_79b5e4557b_z.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2023, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/963 "2023-01-04T14:47:24Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Mind flayers? I guess i don’t know what they look like. They’re just squid boys who like to wear comfy robes. [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/13/Illithid_Sorcerer.png) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/13/Illithid_Sorcerer.png) ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2023, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/964 "2023-01-04T15:07:25Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The thing about Mind Flayers and other Aberrations, in my view, is that they’re fundamentally _alien_. Their thought processes are so different from that of humans and humanoids that there is virtually no common ground between them That’s how I tend to use Aberrations as well. Not only are they not human, they’re nothing at all like humans(or other evolved sentient creatures). They are either artificially created, or come from alternate realities where the laws of physics are so different that they can only barely “exist” at all in our world as a vague projection, like a 3d object morphing as different aspects of it are displayed in 2d (see the Far Realms). Illithids/mind flayers have an origin that’s both more mundane and yet more insane, at least according to 3rd edition. Eons from now, near the end of time, a mighty Illithid empire arises, taking over the world(s). They use spelljammers to move between worlds, and magic to shift between planes. They control everything, and engineered a race called the Gith (consisting of Githyanki and Githzerai which is a cultural, not biological, distinction) to serve them, both for labor and to spawn new mind flayers. But something goes wrong, the Illithid empire collapses, the slaves rebel, and the multiverse is destroyed. But at the last moment, some mind flayers and Gith jump back in time, to the distant distant past. And they begin a shadow war, the Illithid trying to bring about their universal dominance, the Gith trying to prevent it. My favorite part is the possibility that this IS the ultimate origin of the mind flayers. Part of this shadow war involves both the Gith and the Flayers trying to understand where the first mind flayers came from, the Gith to stop then and the Illithids to ensure their success. But, it is implied that this search is futile. The first Mind Flayers are the ones who travelled back in time - a time loop. ---
**Author:** ![peccavi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peccavi/32/388_2.png) [@peccavi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peccavi)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2023, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/965 "2023-01-06T01:10:31Z")
Which are the Spiders and which are the Snakes? [Snakes & Spiders: The Definitive Change War Collection by Fritz Leiber | Goodreads](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/29567944-snakes-spiders) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2023, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/966 "2023-01-06T03:49:26Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Illithids/mind flayers have an origin that’s both more mundane and yet more insane, at least according to 3rd edition. When my brother was running a Dread session of his D&D campaign, I helped him create a new backstory for mind-flayers. Eons back, a sage was studying the further dimensions, and discovered a plane of thought. He tried to summon a creature from the plane–but each creature was made of thought, a self-replicating, self-aware idea, and could not exist independently in this world. He eventually summoned one of the creatures into the best habitat he could find: his own mind. Mistake. The self-replicating thought was horrified at this world of flesh and material in which it was trapped. Controlling the sage was trivial for a creature of thought, and it quickly determined how to externalize the nervous system into tentacles of neurons hanging from the cranium. It also developed a series of gestures and words that it could speak to another humanoid to reproduce in the victim’s mind: by making the victim think in a certain way, the thought would make a copy of itself. The thought–now a mind flayer–at first wanted to return to its home dimension, but eventually concluded that it was hopelessly bound up within matter and wouldn’t survive the return. Its new hope is to turn this plane of matter into a plane of thought through a process that will destroy all matter but leave itself and its replicants untouched. It is, accordingly, reproducing itself to build its power. The characters in the Dread one-shot had all been spoken to by the mind flayer and had the germ of the replicated thought in their minds. The more they considered the concept, the more it gave them powers, and the closer they drew to becoming mind flayers themselves. He reported that the players were thoroughly creeped out. Needless to say, I don’t think this was an especially racist portrayal of mind flayers. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2023, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/967 "2023-01-06T14:10:09Z")
I love it! ---
**Author:** ![vislor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vislor/32/5933_2.png) [@vislor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vislor)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/968 "2023-01-08T18:38:34Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Dark Sun had ziggurats and one of the cities was named Tyr. It wasn’t a fantasy version of Gilgamesh or anything, but the Fertile Crescent was certainly an influence. Hmm. I’m not sure I agree with that. Dark Sun is a post apocalyptic fantasy world. It’s a game world based on survival in a) harsh environments and b) with the City States being ruled by tyrants. The ziggurats have an in game function and purpose but are also an easy structure to build when tech, or magic, is lost. There is one city that has a Sumerian theme to it but it wasn’t Tyr it was Urik. I may be wrong but I don’t see the Fertile Crescent, as applies to real world history, to Dark Sun. Our Fertile Crescent is a beginning, whereas Dark Sun’s is an ending. @Left_Hand_of_Dorkness love that background! Gygax was human and complicated. I would not be surprised if he was passively a racist and a misogynist but I don’t know. I’m not a fan of his but love what he helped create. I think relooking and updating for a modern audience most things is a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2023, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/969 "2023-01-22T08:06:22Z")
Just a bump because I didn’t want to continue hijacking the OGL thread, and this little bit of revisionist history really belongs here: > [@DND OGL - Is anyone following this? Thoughts?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnd-ogl-is-anyone-following-this-thoughts/977886/218): > > This is the same demonstrably false statement that was already debunked by two posters. Now sure, I am biased but Chronos is not. And you were told that it is a false statement, but you repeat it, in an attempt to hijack this thread with a grudge from another thread. In other words, you use unfair debating tactics. And then you wonder why I didn’t want to go back and continue debating you. And that last bit, of saying After you repeat a demonstrably false statement is more evidence of why I… I’ll just point out that Chronos was on the same wrong side as DrDeth in this thread, so the suggestion there that he’s free of bias is a bit rich. Other than that, everyone is capable of reading who here was arguing against racist caricatures, and who was arguing for them _not_ being racist caricatures at all. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2023, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/970 "2023-01-24T18:33:49Z")
This seems like a good thread to mention this: > **[The Fifth Season Roleplaying Game](https://www.backerkit.com/c/green-ronin-publishing/the-fifth-season-roleplaying-game?ref=bk-ads-a-07)** > > N.K. Jemisin’s multiple Hugo Award-winning Broken Earth Trilogy comes to tabletop RPGs in The Fifth Season Roleplaying Game! Green Ronin games is kickstarting an RPG based on N.K. Jemisin’s books. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2023, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/971 "2023-01-24T20:23:16Z")
Very cool ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/972 "2023-01-25T06:42:44Z")
I’ve gone through the quickstart - I like parts of the system, especially the stunt dice mechanic, and don’t like other parts (I mean, _9_ stats? Really?). The artwork, beginner scenario and sample characters are nicely done. It looks like a good product, I’ll be backing the kickstarter ---
**Author:** ![vislor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vislor/32/5933_2.png) [@vislor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vislor)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/973 "2023-01-25T13:13:20Z")
@MrDibble, How many stats should a game have in your opinion? Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/974 "2023-01-25T13:51:49Z")
Nine doesn’t seem weird. The World of Darkness (Vampire, et al) has nine; three physical, three social and three mental. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/975 "2023-01-25T13:56:26Z")
> [@vislor](#): > > How many stats should a game have in your opinion? My personal preference is less than 5 ability stats. Even the traditional 6 is more clunky than I like. When I homebrew systems, I generally have 2 or 3 - Physical and Mental, or Physical, Mental and Mana. Variety can come in the form of skill selection, not stats (what this system calls focus. AFAICT) I’m aware this degree of extreme stat parsimony is a me problem though.But even by D&D standards, 9 is 50% more stats. > [@Jophiel](#): > > The World of Darkness (Vampire, et al) has nine; three physical, three social and three mental. Yeah, and I think that’s bloated. ---
**Author:** ![vislor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vislor/32/5933_2.png) [@vislor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vislor)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/976 "2023-01-25T14:50:40Z")
@MrDibble We all like what we like! I have no problem with that. I get torn between that at times, wanting more for depth or less for drama. @Jophiel I thought nine was a lot in WoD/CoD after seeing six for so long but I also like Shadowrun and that has nine plus a few more derived. Of course, having so many stats, then they reduced skills down to a high level, which is funny but I can understand. I think for me as long as it fits the game, I’m fine with it. As easy as it is to say less for drama and more for simulation, I also seem to like more for modern or scifi for some reason. Or at least have them be skill based. Thanks for the replies! ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/977 "2023-01-25T16:12:55Z")
I actually prefer the idea of nine over six as I think too few leads to stupid things like how “wise” you are determining how well you notice secret doors or 5e’s Charisma catch-all for everything from selling used cars to _handwaves_ “uhh… force of being?” in resisting being cast out of a Plane of Existence. I guess you could go the other way and boil it down to Body & Mind but that seems to just make attributes pointless anyway. If you’re going to have them, I think you should have enough spread for them to make sense and not have to awkwardly shoehorn things in. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/978 "2023-01-25T17:13:41Z")
Some players want extra levels of granularity. They not only want nine (or whatever) stats, but they want each stat broken down into sub-stats that they can further customize to reflect their character. If the numbers don’t say it, then it doesn’t exist. Other players are content to say “my character’s super low wisdom reflects her terrible eyesight” and find ways to roleplay around situations where that explanation doesn’t really make sense. It’s all good. I think five or six stats is a pretty good sweet spot, but the nine being used by the 5th Season quickstart linked above are pretty common. I think they’re just about functionally identical to the ones used by the Warhammer rpgs I’ve played. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/979 "2023-01-25T17:46:37Z")
The Starship Troopers-derived indie RPG _3:16_ had two stats. One you’d roll when you were trying to kill something, and one you’d roll for literally any other action. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/980 "2023-01-25T18:03:23Z")
I have some zombie survival game where you get three body points. Difficulty to perform a challenge goes up based on how many body points you’ve lost. That’s it. I suppose the GM can set the difficulty lower for a science teacher to mix chemicals into a bomb than for a musician to do so but that’s all narrative. Granted, it’s more for fun one-shots versus simulationist zombie survival and world-building campaigns. I can’t say that number of attributes has ever been a sticking point for me (not saying it is for anyone else here either), I was just surprised to hear it phrased as though nine was unusual or excessive. Though MrDibble is backing it so it still isn’t any huge deal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114.md?page=48) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114.md?page=50)