# D & D got woke and that's good because you should have all been playing that way (or not if you didn't prefer)) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** rpg-dnd-wargames\ **Created:** [February 17, 2021, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114 "2021-02-17T10:36:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 50
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/981 "2023-01-25T18:31:51Z")
Oh, I’ll play lots of systems, doesn’t mean I won’t point out the things I dislike in them. Or the things I like - I’m keen to see how that 3-dice mechanic works in practice, but I really like the sound of it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/982 "2023-01-25T22:12:02Z")
If I’m really good at threading needles, is that indicative of high Dex? If I’m really bad at catching a ball, is that indicative of low Dex? What if (as is in fact the case) I’m both? At some level, you’re never going to have enough stats to accurately describe a person’s abilities. On the other hand, though, if you’re never going to have enough, then maybe you shouldn’t try? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/983 "2023-01-25T22:31:27Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > If I’m really good at threading needles, is that indicative of high Dex? If I’m really bad at catching a ball, is that indicative of low Dex? What if (as is in fact the case) I’m both? Make a Fine Motor Skills check to thread the needle and a Hand Eye Coordination check to catch the ball. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/984 "2023-01-26T05:29:04Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > At some level, you’re never going to have enough stats to accurately describe a person’s abilities. See, that’s the point - I’m not a simulationist. “Accurately describing abilities” at that level of discretion doesn’t interest me at all. ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/985 "2023-01-26T08:19:23Z")
Back to kobold omelettes: Thread has me thinking I should read _The Iron Dream_ by Norman Spinrad. ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/986 "2023-01-26T08:29:20Z")
A thought: if its racist to make orcs or drow 95% evil, is it also racist to make hobbits 95% good ? ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/987 "2023-01-26T08:47:14Z")
… demihumans are part of the issue. In a sparse setting of humans, Evil Orcs, Trolls the nonhumans can he clearly Not Human but if you extend “humanity” to elves and hobbits then denying it to orcs is much dodgier? …elves, yuck, they are like super white elitist sierra club liberals with their privileged long lives and skinny bods and magic fucking biscuits while the rest of creation has to graft and die. … if you dont want Evil Drow then ya just gotta chuck the judgy alignment system driving the whole shitshow ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/988 "2023-01-26T09:50:34Z")
> [@nicky](#): > > A thought: if its racist to make orcs or drow 95% evil, is it also racist to make hobbits 95% good ? Possibly. What racial associations do hobbits have for you? I tend not to think of them as particularly _Völkisch_. ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/989 "2023-01-26T11:00:43Z")
Tolkeinhobbits are idealised sentimetalised english suburban petitbourgeoisie but anyway some are arguing all speciies essentialism is racist ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/990 "2023-01-26T12:31:49Z")
> [@nicky](#): > > Tolkeinhobbits are idealised sentimetalised > english suburban petitbourgeoisie D&D halflings have moved way beyond that origin. Hell, even _Tolkien_ hobbits have, just ask Lenny Henry. > [@](#): > > but anyway some are arguing all speciies essentialism is racist “Some” are no doubt arguing that. Are any of them in this thread? Only person I saw mention other than you it was Odesio, but that was in reference to other people, not themselves. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/991 "2023-01-26T12:41:24Z")
> [@nicky](#): > > A thought: if its racist to make orcs or drow 95% evil, is it also racist to make hobbits 95% good ? No, because probably 95% of people in general are basically good aligned. ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/992 "2023-01-26T12:56:33Z")
What, even Trump voters? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/993 "2023-01-26T13:09:33Z")
Don’ get @MrDibble started… ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/994 "2023-01-26T13:15:09Z")
> [@nicky](#): > > but anyway some are arguing all speciies essentialism is racist Few people are arguing that. We’re arguing that species essentialism is problematic because it reinforces real-world ideas about racial essentialism, which _are_ racist. Many people in this thread are having genuine issues understanding that there can be plenty of space between “_this issue is problematic and making small changes will play a small part in affecting larger systemic change_” and “_people who say this are racists who must be shunned from society._” Which is how we end up with, “Oh yeah? Well what about **this** very specific example? Is everyone who likes it racist?” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/995 "2023-01-26T13:21:28Z")
Absolutely. Consider three game tables I might join at a con: Table 1: The game has us going up against goblins in a dungeon, and without much background, the adventure expects us to go through the dungeon and kill these goblins who are trying to kill us. I might think that it’s not ideal, but I’m gonna stay at that table most likely and play along. Table 2: The game has us going up against goblins in a dungeon, and at some point we encounter a bunch of baby goblins, and the other PCs start slaughtering goblin babies because they’ll just grow up to be goblins. I’m either going to leave that table, or see if there’s a way we can pause the game and talk about how we can all have fun there, because that kind of essentialism sure as shit isn’t fun for me. Table 3: The game has us going up against goblins in a dungeon, and the DM is giving them all stereotypical Black accents and making jokes about crackheads and welfare queens. I’m calling that shit out as racist and disrupting that game and talking to the con managers. There’s a huge spectrum of stuff, and a huge spectrum of responses. ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/996 "2023-01-26T13:39:47Z")
I hear you but isnt being worried about fantasy species essentialism actually ceding ground to the evil racist idea of “race”? Isnt making goblins mistaken just swapping physical genocide for cultural? (Send the goblin babies to Humanoid Reform School !) I think that in the filing cabinet of the mind, the important thing about the unit “D&D” is the big shiny label saying _NOT REAL_ rather than the contents, and if you do want some semblance of real morality in your games there’s a shitload more than evil orcs to chuck. ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/997 "2023-01-26T13:44:39Z")
Or im a grumpy old sod who doesn’t like being overtaken in righteousness by the kids so im inventing an impossible standard for them to fail to reach. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/998 "2023-01-26T14:35:48Z")
Asked and answered. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![vislor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vislor/32/5933_2.png) [@vislor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vislor)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/999 "2023-01-26T14:53:57Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > If I’m really good at threading needles, is that indicative of high Dex? If I’m really bad at catching a ball, is that indicative of low Dex? What if (as is in fact the case) I’m both? > > At some level, you’re never going to have enough stats to accurately describe a person’s abilities. On the other hand, though, if you’re never going to have enough, then maybe you shouldn’t try? On the one hand, yes. No table top game will be able to simulate everything. Further, a lot of games won’t make you roll for such things unless there is a time component or dramatic component to it. OTOH, the reason I like Alternity so much is that your roll was against your ability score + skill rank. A person with a high agility is someone who is naturally good at a task. What they did was put rank benefits on the skills, allowing for high skill people to be better at things than high ability score, even if they had the same chances to succeed. Sadly the game was dropped with the WotC merger so that system never got developed much. I say that because combat skills, higher ranks gave you extra attacks, but most non combat skills just gave a bonus to succeed or the ability to do things (like repairs) faster. Yes, though, I still agree that no game can do it all and I shudder to think of one that tries. Living Steel probably came close with it’s combat system, which was a mess to me. ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/1000 "2023-01-26T15:38:15Z")
Asked and answered. 😉 “I climb into the devil-face mouth” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114.md?page=49) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114.md?page=51)