# D & D got woke and that's good because you should have all been playing that way (or not if you didn't prefer)) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** rpg-dnd-wargames\ **Created:** [February 17, 2021, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114 "2021-02-17T10:36:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2021, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/121 "2021-02-19T20:53:21Z")
Part of the problem here–and this is why I brought up Nazis–is that it’s not clear what “always evil” means. Is a predatory race “always evil”? Is a race that shows up mainly as an aggressively expansionist empire “always evil”? What about a race that’s nomadic and raids farmers? What about a race with long moustachios that they like to twirl while chuckling darkly? Whatever you come up with has the potential to be interesting. But it also has the potential to be hella racist. If what you come up with closely mirrors 19th century White American or British descriptions of Native Americans, or subsaharan Africans, or Middle Easterners, or Gypsies, don’t especially care what you call those creatures; I’m gonna lean toward seeing your creation as “hella racist.” The article I linked to, by NK Jemisin, is a pretty good review of why orcs tend to trip the “hella racist” alarms. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2021, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/122 "2021-02-19T20:57:16Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > And, even back then, as a teenaged boy, I thought it was unfair that female player characters couldn’t be as strong as their male counterparts. I had a simple comeback for that- sure Females get -1 from str but +1 to dex and Cha, and males get -1 to those, fair? Then they shut up, ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2021, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/123 "2021-02-19T20:58:04Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Hence me asking for examples of how they are different. Because this whole thing started with a weary “Evil races are boring!” and hasn’t really illustrated how this is so or done much to suggest that a race is more interesting for NOT being evil. It sounds like you’re saying that the only way to portray a race as not being like humans is to make them completely evil. Surely, _you_ can think of ways that a race could be inhuman, but not monstrous? Beyond that, I’m not really sure how to illustrate a subjective opinion like, “races that are always evil are boring.” It’s like asking someone to prove that a painting is pretty. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2021, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/124 "2021-02-19T20:58:47Z")
The other issue, IMO, is the Star Wars Planet fallacy. You know how planets in the Star Wars universe are desert planets, or swamp planets, or ice planets, with no recognition that a planet is gonna have different biomes? (Fanboys, please don’t correct me with a reference to some Timothy Zahn novel or two seconds from episode 12 of the animated show’s third season; in fact miss me with the corrections altogether, this is an analogy) That’s not realistic, and it’s kind of annoying. In the same way, if your drow all have the same culture, or your halflings, or your elves, that’s gonna be unrealistic and kind of annoying. In fact, any direct link between race and culture runs into issues. If you’ve got a group of expansionist imperial orcs, and another group of hyper-traditional orcish shepherds, and a subculture of young orcish poets that haunt coffeehouses and whose verbal burns will _devastate_ you, now things are a lot more interesting. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2021, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/125 "2021-02-19T21:00:13Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > D&D was never designed to emulate our reality so I’ve never understood the desire to attempt to apply the game’s mechanics to real people or situations. It’s a fun little exercise, kind of like trying to figure out what alignment Batman is, but a definitive and satisfactory answer is unlikely to be reached. Yeah, it is a fantasy game, where you can cast fireball and gods can be killed. Dont try to drag too much realism into something that isnt real at all. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2021, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/126 "2021-02-19T21:00:19Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > It sounds like you’re saying that the only way to portray a race as not being like humans is to make them completely evil. Nope. I’m saying that nothing is wrong with having a race be completely evil and that it’s one way to make different races different. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2021, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/127 "2021-02-19T21:04:34Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > And one more thing - D&D is a setting in which beings of pure Law and Good can fall to Evil, and beings of pure Evil and Chaos can redeem themselves and become Paladins (there is a Canon Succubus Paladin). So the idea of a biological race like Orcs being 100% irredeemable is more than a little silly. No one sez orcs are 100% irredeemable, but if you run into a orc warparty, it is best to assume evil intentions and fireball first. A lone orc, waving at you and not charging with weapons drawn? Sure, talk to him. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2021, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/128 "2021-02-19T21:06:16Z")
Then why did you need counter-examples of races that are distinctly non-human, but also not inherently evil? You don’t have a problem with the aesthetics of a race that’s inherently evil. Other people do not enjoy those aesthetics. So long as nobody’s calling you, personally, a racist for liking those aesthetics - and I don’t think anyone in this thread has done that - what exactly are you arguing about? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2021, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/129 "2021-02-19T21:06:37Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > But how are YOUR elves different? When you’re playing an elf as a player or DM, what explicitly makes it different from a Human in a Hat yet innately the same as other elves? What about it would make someone say “Yeah, that’s totally elf” and not “Lemme see your character sheet and what race you picked”? Their perception of time is completely different, and so they struggle to live in human society. (Incidentally, that helps with PCs who just want to play a human with pointy ears and +2 Dex. The only elves who love among humans are those who, for one reason or another, think more like a human than like an elf. That’s not terribly uncommon as a stage for young elves to go through - they tend to grow out of it after the second or third time all of their friends died of old age, at which point they return to elven society). An elf who wants to be a smith will seek out the best smith in the elven lands and apprentice to him for centuries. For the first hundred years, he wouldn’t even pick up a hammer. He’d learn to prepare his master’s work space precisely right; he’d study the exact composition of the fuel for the bellows, the intricate changes in heat that must be followed when smithing different types of products. He’d practice the movements of hammering over and over using different proxies until he has mastered it. Think of wax on/wax off from Karate Kid for two centuries. And for most elves, this sort of patience comes naturally, because they don’t perceive time the same way we do. But elves apply this sort of logic to every aspect of their lives, and are more than willing to become hyperfocused on a single craft or skill for centuries until they’ve truly mastered it. Additionally, the elf who apprentices to a smith would study poetry about different aspects of the craft, and write his own, with the same careful consideration he applies to the craft itself. He’d travel from elven city to elven city to closely study the greatest works of elven smiths, when possible. (Does this make sense from a game mechanic perspective when the elf could yo dungeoncrawl and kill some zombies and pick up 5 levels and a handful of ranks in Craft (Smithing) during a fraction of the time? No, but that’s an issue with the DND system more than the lore). One of the most corruptive things Lollth did to the Drow was make them impatient. If I had to have an innate difference between elves and drow, that would be it; but I prefer the idea that drow perceive time the same way elves do, and it is their culture that sets them apart. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2021, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/130 "2021-02-19T21:08:01Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Part of the problem here–and this is why I brought up Nazis–is that it’s not clear what “always evil” means. I tried to answer this but, to expand a little, when we think of Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia or North Korea or ISIS-controlled regions, etc we think of the top layer as controlled by evil people perhaps but we also take comfort in the idea that the base level, the guys farming and shopping and eating in cafes are just like you and me. This is a core aspect of diplomacy: In the end, we’re all the same and we all want the same fundamental things. In RPGs, this usually carried over to other core races. Halflings or surface elves or dwarfs or gnomes are fundamentally the same as humans in that they all have that lower layer of people even if they have an evil king or warlord or whatnot. Drow are evil all the way down. The Drow in the cafes and farms are trying to fuck over the other Drow in the cafes and farms. The Drow you bump into at the store is just as interested in manipulating you as the Lloth High Priestess, it’s just a question of ability and scale. Dealing with them requires understanding that they’re NOT like you at their core and acting accordingly. There’s no level of Drow that just wants the quest satisfaction of a job well done and a loving partner and seeing their children do well (except as it benefits them). They form alliances, not friendships. They evil. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2021, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/131 "2021-02-19T21:08:34Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Humans can be amoral or immoral and evil and be driven by revenge, etc but they can’t do it on a society-wide level like Drow can. And this is part of who they ARE, twisted however many years ago and it’s more like a cursed part of their DNA than just being raised wrong. A Drow baby raised elsewhere will grow up to be an manipulative jerk (though perhaps less adept at it without the benefit of Drow society sharpening it). A non-evil Drow is “possible” but it’s more akin to a chromosomal aberration than being raised the right way. The thing is, drow society didn’t evolve out of the nature of drow. Drow society was specifically crafted by a malevolent goddess to make them the way that they are. Comparisons to naturally evolved societies are counterproductive because Drow society was purposefully engineered by an impatient goddess to take an eternal race and light a fire under their ass. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2021, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/132 "2021-02-19T21:11:31Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Drow society was specifically crafted by a malevolent goddess to make them the way that they are. Right. They’re not just like us. Or just like elves if you raise them right. At least in my world, obviously other people’s Drow may vary. Which was one of my original points: In a world where races are being formed directly from deities (who are often aligned with a specific aspect) and have deities actively working in their lives and who just aren’t human… why make them overly human or say they can’t be “always evil”? Whether or not Drow are evil doesn’t reflect on what humans are capable of but some people feel the need to turn it into “But if Drow are always evil then what if someone says [real group] is always evil?” When the obvious answer is: Drow aren’t humans. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2021, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/133 "2021-02-19T21:11:52Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No one sez orcs are 100% irredeemable, but if you run into a orc warparty, it is best to assume evil intentions and fireball first. Sure, and in my campaign based around Eberron’s Next War, set a couple decades after the Last War, if you see a Brelish war party, you should probably fireball first, too. But if you see a group of orcs who aren’t in a warparty, or if the orcs ARE armed but there aren’t ongoing hostilities between you and the orcs nearby, you probably shouldn’t fireball. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2021, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/134 "2021-02-19T21:13:44Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > Drow society was specifically crafted by a malevolent goddess to make them the way that they are. > > Right. They’re not just like us. Or just like elves if you raise them right. At least in my world, obviously other people’s Drow may vary. A drow raised by regular elves isn’t part of drow society; so if drow are evil because their society was designed by Lollth to make them evil, why would a drow untouched by drow society be evil? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2021, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/135 "2021-02-19T21:16:12Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > if drow are evil because their society was designed by Lollth to make them evil They’re not (at least in my world). They’re evil because it’s a cursed part of their aspect. Drow society has the “benefit” of sharpening their skills but they’d be dicks even if you raised one in a field full of bluebirds and flowers. A Drow being not-evil is like a Drow being born with seven fingers on each hand: possible but not indicative of every Drow’s potential nature. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2021, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/136 "2021-02-19T21:17:26Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Drow are evil all the way down. The Drow in the cafes and farms are trying to fuck over the other Drow in the cafes and farms. The Drow you bump into at the store is just as interested in manipulating you as the Lloth High Priestess, it’s just a question of ability and scale. Dealing with them requires understanding that they’re NOT like you at their core and acting accordingly. “Evil” here means “trying to fuck everyone else over”? There are some logical problems with this: how can you cooperate meaningfully with someone you know isn’t trustworthy? The Kantian imperative is raising its eyebrows. But if you get past that, okay, cool. That’s not really based off a racist stereotype, so it’s not really what folks are talking about when criticizing the racist “evil races” trope, IMO. If, however, your “always evil” race has dark skin and is brutish and wears bones in their noses and stomp-dances while wearing large scary wooden masks, well, you might just be **World of Warcraft**. I mean, you might just be hella racist. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2021, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/137 "2021-02-19T21:20:17Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > They’re not (at least in my world). They’re evil because it’s a cursed part of their aspect. Drow society has the “benefit” of sharpening their skills but they’d be dicks even if you raised one in a field full of bluebirds and flowers But then that removes any agency from the Drow, and means they are no more evil than unintelligent undead. If a drow is a dick because Lolth magically made it impossible for that drow to act in any way aside from dickishly, then a drow is no more responsible for her evil acts than a zombie puppeted by a necromancer is - and no more interesting as a character, either. If all you’re looking for in a drow is a sack of hit points for your good guys to cut through, that’s all well and good, but I like my bad guys to be deep and interesting characters in their own right, with self consistent motivations, even if they end up irredeemably evil. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2021, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/138 "2021-02-19T21:20:49Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If, however, your “always evil” race has dark skin and is brutish and wears bones in their noses and stomp-dances while wearing large scary wooden masks, well, you might just be **World of Warcraft**. I mean, you might just be hella racist. Sure. I said earlier that it would be great if D&D didn’t have the Evil Elves be black-skinned and should either change that skin color and/or have some definitive Good Guy black-skinned races. Or something. Likewise, don’t have your nomadic gnolls living in teepees and making totem poles or whatever. No arguments there. But gnolls can still be creatures with an innate bestial nature where dealing with one is like dealing with a barely tamed hyena and all’s good until it bites you in the face. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2021, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/139 "2021-02-19T21:22:18Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > then a drow is no more responsible for her evil acts than a zombie puppeted by a necromancer is - and no more interesting as a character, either. If that’s the best you can do with it, sure, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2021, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114/140 "2021-02-19T21:23:44Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > But gnolls can still be creatures with an innate bestial nature where dealing with one is like dealing with a barely tamed hyena and all’s good until it bites you in the face. That’s precisely how I described my gnolls though? Well, I added the bit about a matriarchal society modeled on real hyena clans. But it doesn’t make gnolls inherently Evil - hyenas aren’t Evil, they’re Neutral. And you can tame a pet hyena, and a gnoll growing up within a civilized society could be a part of it (even if he’d be more likely than most to snap and bite someone’s head off due to a carnivorous nature and the types of hormones controlling its emotions). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-got-woke-and-thats-good-because-you-should-have-all-been-playing-that-way-or-not-if-you-didnt-prefer/933114.md?page=8)