# D & D on the Straight Dope setup thread. (In Middle Earth FA63) **URL:** \ **Category:** Thread Games\ **Tags:** middle-earth-game\ **Created:** [February 26, 2008, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276 "2008-02-26T20:17:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 56
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1101 "2008-09-10T20:14:57Z")
> [@RogueRacer](#): > > Out of curiousity, what is the debate there? I’m I misremembering that it was even called Moria-Silver at least once in the books? > > Now that I think of it though, weren’t the helms of the Guards of the Citadel made with at least some mithril? Apparently Gondor had set in a good supply if it was as rare as I believed. 😉 The Helms of the Citadel Guard were Mithril Steel and apparently some armor and weapons. I can’t remember where I read the debate, but as I recall, Mithril appears to be available to the Numenoreans before the great Ship Kings made the West of Middle Earth a vassal state. I will look for the debate, but Mithril was called “True Silver” often and Moria-Silver rarely. [This might help:](http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/m/mithril.html) > [@](#): > > Also called ‘truesilver’, and many other names besides; the remarkable metal that the Dwarves discovered in the mines of Khazad-dûm. It was supple and easy to work, and could be polished to shimmer like silver that never tarnished, and it was stronger than steel. In Middle-earth, mithril was found nowhere but the Dwarf-mines of Khazad-dûm, though there are indications that it was also found in Númenor and in Aman. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1102 "2008-09-11T15:24:16Z")
IIRC, one of the ways the later Numenoreans showed they were getting all grabby was when they changed from being counselors and teachers to the Men of the West, to exploiting and conquering them, incl. forcing them to fork over any mithril they had (shades of the _Conquistadores_) for removal to Numenor. ---
**Author:** ![RogueRacer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7ab992/32.png) [@RogueRacer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RogueRacer)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1103 "2008-09-11T16:01:34Z")
I would also guess that Gondor would have an influx of mithril at the beginning of the Fourth Age considering what they would have recovered from Mordor. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1104 "2008-09-11T16:06:17Z")
> [@RogueRacer](#): > > I would also guess that Gondor would have an influx of mithril at the beginning of the Fourth Age considering what they would have recovered from Mordor. That is a good point and maybe the answer. Still means Mithril is devalued from where it was just 70 years back. When Moria was a going concern, Mithril held 10x the value of Gold. It rose to something much higher. \*\*Now get over to the game thread and post your Magic Items wish list. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1105 "2008-09-11T16:10:20Z")
Sir yes sir! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![RogueRacer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7ab992/32.png) [@RogueRacer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RogueRacer)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1106 "2008-09-11T19:24:48Z")
One of the loot items the party obtained is a +2 dagger capable of injecting poison. How does this go along with a Hobbit’s normal outlook on things? To me, I think Elfstan would have a hard time using poison with it. Maybe (and this is a big maybe) something that paralyzes, slows, or causes unconsciousness might work, but I certainly can’t see him or any Hobbit wanting to use deadly poisons. The more I think about it, the less I can see a happy go lucky Hobbit using a poisoned weapon. Maybe it would be better off with a human such as Doer or with Miron since he makes poisons anyway? Also, would using poison in this dagger cause either of the Hobbits alignment problems? ---
**Author:** ![CatInASuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3be4f8/32.png) [@CatInASuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CatInASuit)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1107 "2008-09-11T19:41:20Z")
> [@RogueRacer](#): > > One of the loot items the party obtained is a +2 dagger capable of injecting poison. How does this go along with a Hobbit’s normal outlook on things? To me, I think Elfstan would have a hard time using poison with it. Maybe (and this is a big maybe) something that paralyzes, slows, or causes unconsciousness might work, but I certainly can’t see him or any Hobbit wanting to use deadly poisons. The more I think about it, the less I can see a happy go lucky Hobbit using a poisoned weapon. Maybe it would be better off with a human such as Doer or with Miron since he makes poisons anyway? > > Also, would using poison in this dagger cause either of the Hobbits alignment problems? Ghan has several paralysis darts, which Mulligan has “borrowed” on occasion. Deadly poison would be a no-no, but for sleep or paralysis, it would probably be ok. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1108 "2008-09-11T19:41:26Z")
> [@RogueRacer](#): > > One of the loot items the party obtained is a +2 dagger capable of injecting poison. How does this go along with a Hobbit’s normal outlook on things? To me, I think Elfstan would have a hard time using poison with it. Maybe (and this is a big maybe) something that paralyzes, slows, or causes unconsciousness might work, but I certainly can’t see him or any Hobbit wanting to use deadly poisons. The more I think about it, the less I can see a happy go lucky Hobbit using a poisoned weapon. Maybe it would be better off with a human such as Doer or with Miron since he makes poisons anyway? > > Also, would using poison in this dagger cause either of the Hobbits alignment problems? **Poison is absolutely out** , but something like Ghân’s fast acting paralyzing concoctions should be OK. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1109 "2008-09-11T19:47:25Z")
I wonder what other alternatives might be available, though, that would increase damage in a “holy” sort of a way. Maybe water from the river in Lothlorien, as that would certainly be powerful against an ancient evil? Or does “poison” mean a substance that is deadly to the injectee, even if harmless to the injector? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1110 "2008-09-11T19:55:45Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > I wonder what other alternatives might be available, though, that would increase damage in a “holy” sort of a way. Maybe water from the river in Lothlorien, as that would certainly be powerful against an ancient evil? Or does “poison” mean a substance that is deadly to the injectee, even if harmless to the injector? Holy Water does not really appear to exist in my game or this world. I guess a Priest of Ulmo might be the exception to that. There are paralysis and sleep agents available. Ghân makes a very effective paralysis agent. I once saw someone gimmick a poison knife to deliver a localized Sweet Water does to the poisoned wound. I don’t allow that, but it was an interesting idea. The magic of Lothlorien has largely faded with the passing of Galadriel and while the water she specifically enchanted had some great powers, I believe the River itself was merely pure and wholesome without Galadriel somehow directing it. I think you are speaking of the River Celebrant that feeds the Anduin. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1111 "2008-09-11T19:59:49Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Holy Water does not really appear to exist in my game or this world. I guess a Priest of Ulmo might be the exception to that. There are paralysis and sleep agents available. Ghân makes a very effective paralysis agent. I once saw someone gimmick a poison knife to deliver a localized Sweet Water does to the poisoned wound. I don’t allow that, but it was an interesting idea. > > The magic of Lothlorien has largely faded with the passing of Galadriel and while the water she specifically enchanted had some great powers, I believe the River itself was merely pure and wholesome without Galadriel somehow directing it. I think you are speaking of the River Celebrant that feeds the Anduin. Oh, I really don’t know what I’m referring to; my knowledge of Middle Earth is quite limited. I’m interested in the ethics of the situation; is “poison” limited to herbal and chemical poisons as we know them in real life (and magical poisons that imitate them) or would injecting a Vampire with a substance harmful to it be morally equivalent to poison and therefore not allowable for a Good character? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1112 "2008-09-11T20:15:01Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > Oh, I really don’t know what I’m referring to; my knowledge of Middle Earth is quite limited. I’m interested in the ethics of the situation; is “poison” limited to herbal and chemical poisons as we know them in real life (and magical poisons that imitate them) or would injecting a Vampire with a substance harmful to it be morally equivalent to poison and therefore not allowable for a Good character? Most good characters would be of a mind set that: a) Vampire are always evil b) If it isn’t poison to humans and humanoids then it isn’t really poison c) This liquid will kill a vampire, let me have it please! This is not 100% true, but should be a decent guideline. Easy exception: The Woses can be good and do use poisons. They do not have a taboo against it. Glee imposed a stricter taboo on Ghân by choice. ---
**Author:** ![RogueRacer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7ab992/32.png) [@RogueRacer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RogueRacer)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1113 "2008-09-11T20:27:26Z")
Well, they’re all poisons really, so I take it the line is between something deadly (or permanent) and something that’s temporary? Let me put a slightly different spin on the question. First, as I mentioned when I signed up, my roleplaying is rusty at best. Still, I’m trying to be consistent with Elfstan’s actions. First and foremost he has a voice in his head asking “what would Grandpa Samwise do?” This is not to say his solutions are the same as what Sam would come up with, but it is his moral compass… as much as possible for a treasure finder. :dubious: Second, although there really is no such thing as Hobbit nobility, Elfstan is as close as it comes. He was raised with the idea that he would eventually be the Warden of Westmarch. I would have to check some of what Jim and I talked about creating the character, but at the very least it can be assumed that he was raised to know how to take charge when necessary. His mother, Elanor the Fair, was a maid of honor to Queen Arwen. He would have exposure to life at King Elessar’s court, even if he was young at the time or if it was just through what he has learned from Elanor. His father is the current Warden of Westmarch. In other words, Elfstan is a pretty serious Hobbit. That however is tempered by his very young age and the fact that Hobbits in general probably aren’t all that serious. He’s still going to do rash and impulsive things on occasion. The fact that he’s a “treasure finder” shows this. Just don’t compare him to Pippin before he (Pippin) came to Gondor. Elfstan and Pippin’s backgrounds are light years apart. Anyway, back to the problem at hand, I really can’t see Sam using a poison, even something temporary. Probably the only exception would be if Frodo’s life was in danger. With that in mind, I could see Elfstan having some real conflicts using anything in the dagger. Of course, it should work just fine as a normal +2 dagger, right? ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1114 "2008-09-11T20:41:54Z")
It’s also probably possible to use the compartments inside that would store poison to store other things (healing herbs, lockpicks, between-meals-snacks). ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1115 "2008-09-11T20:49:33Z")
> [@RogueRacer](#): > > Well, they’re all poisons really, so I take it the line is between something deadly (or permanent) and something that’s temporary? > > Let me put a slightly different spin on the question. First, as I mentioned when I signed up, my roleplaying is rusty at best. Still, I’m trying to be consistent with Elfstan’s actions. First and foremost he has a voice in his head asking “what would Grandpa Samwise do?” This is not to say his solutions are the same as what Sam would come up with, but it is his moral compass… as much as possible for a treasure finder. :dubious: > > Second, although there really is no such thing as Hobbit nobility, Elfstan is as close as it comes. He was raised with the idea that he would eventually be the Warden of Westmarch. I would have to check some of what Jim and I talked about creating the character, but at the very least it can be assumed that he was raised to know how to take charge when necessary. His mother, Elanor the Fair, was a maid of honor to Queen Arwen. He would have exposure to life at King Elessar’s court, even if he was young at the time or if it was just through what he has learned from Elanor. His father is the current Warden of Westmarch. In other words, Elfstan is a pretty serious Hobbit. > > That however is tempered by his very young age and the fact that Hobbits in general probably aren’t all that serious. He’s still going to do rash and impulsive things on occasion. The fact that he’s a “treasure finder” shows this. Just don’t compare him to Pippin before he (Pippin) came to Gondor. Elfstan and Pippin’s backgrounds are light years apart. > > Anyway, back to the problem at hand, I really can’t see Sam using a poison, even something temporary. Probably the only exception would be if Frodo’s life was in danger. With that in mind, I could see Elfstan having some real conflicts using anything in the dagger. Of course, it should work just fine as a normal +2 dagger, right? Actually Pip was even younger than Elfstan. He was actually the eldest son of the Thain and thus he was Hobbit nobility. He was as close to a crown prince as the Shire has. The Baggins were rich and respectable. They were a leisure class. Merry was more on your level as the eldest son of an important regional family that led the region. He was also closer to your age. Sam was from the working class. Good stock but poor. He made the largest gains of any of the Hobbits as Frodo took the greatest loss. I agree with your summation that Elfstan would not use the injector part of the dagger. Perhaps Mulligan might still consider a trade as Mulligan would use it and is probably getting the Ring of Warmth also. ---
**Author:** ![RogueRacer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7ab992/32.png) [@RogueRacer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RogueRacer)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1116 "2008-09-11T21:08:25Z")
True enough on the son of the Thain part regarding Pippin. I guess part of my point is that before the end of the Fourth Age, Hobbits really weren’t on the map. The events leading to the destruction of the ring and the crowning of King Elessar put them on the map. Merry and Pippin learned what it was like to ride with kings and watched them lead armies. By the time they returned to the Shire they were prepared to deal with the hostile takeover by Saruman. In my mind, with the return of the four Hobbits (especially Merry and Pippin) and the memories of “Sharky”, the expectations for a young Hobbit in Elfstan’s position would be different than what they were for Pippin. Things would be more serious and their education would be different. That’s just my opinion of course. 🆒 Regardless, I just brought that up so everyone knew where I was coming from on the poison thing. I think it would be very handy, but I also think that allowing Elfstan to use it (at least without serious misgivings) would be a roleplaying misstep on my part. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1117 "2008-09-11T22:01:37Z")
With the creation of the Westmarch, I’d guess that the Warden of the Tower ranked much on a par with the Master of Buckland - the leader of a semi-autonomous subsection of the Shire. Nominally the Took, as Thain, ranked everyone else, though he plainly didn’t show it off much or feel it highly important until the Sackville-Bagginses got uppity, whereupon the Took observed crossly that if anyone was going to play the Chief at this time of day then it would be the right Thain of the Shire and not some pimply upstart. I’ve been thinking all along that one of Ghan’s concoctions would be suitable for that dagger - he has plenty of stuff that incapacitates without killing. But yes, Elfstan is more knightly than the average hobbit - and, with Sting and the mithril-coat, has the tools to be effective accordingly. But a +3 knife will be a handy equaliser for those times when it’s not safe to show off Sting. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1118 "2008-09-11T22:34:12Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > With the creation of the Westmarch, I’d guess that the Warden of the Tower ranked much on a par with the Master of Buckland - the leader of a semi-autonomous subsection of the Shire. Nominally the Took, as Thain, ranked everyone else, though he plainly didn’t show it off much or feel it highly important until the Sackville-Bagginses got uppity, whereupon the Took observed crossly that if anyone was going to play the Chief at this time of day then it would be the right Thain of the Shire and not some pimply upstart. This exactly matches my take. The Warden of the Westmarch though is probably slightly more important than the Master of Buckland now that Meridoc has passed on the title. The Wardens have direct interaction with the King from what I recall. Note that Elfstan’s mom Elanor was part of the court for a while and a handmaiden to the Queen. The Thain and the Mayor are still the most important Hobbits positions though. ---
**Author:** ![RogueRacer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7ab992/32.png) [@RogueRacer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RogueRacer)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1119 "2008-09-12T02:42:49Z")
Not disputed. For the record, these are my views, not the character’s views. I certainly in no way want Elfstan to be construed as arrogant. His Grandpa Samwise would have taken care of that in no time (if Elanor hadn’t done it first). My point was more that Hobbits should have a greater sense of the value of leadership after the take over by Saruman and the rescue by Pippin, Merry, and friends. I think different things would be stressed in Elfstan’s youth than what was stressed to Pippin and Merry. Aragorn and the others were all fighting to preserve the Hobbits’ simple way of life (among other things), but as their return showed, not even the Shire was spared. Is that making any sense to you Tolkien gurus? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1120 "2008-09-12T04:40:05Z")
Makes sense to me. Seems a reasonable extrapolation of Hobbit “high society” in the years since Saruman’s fall. Wiki on mithril: [Mithril - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithril) And the Encyclopedia of Arda on mithril: [The Encyclopedia of Arda - Mithril](http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/m/mithril.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276.md?page=55) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276.md?page=57)