# D & D on the Straight Dope setup thread. (In Middle Earth FA63) **URL:** \ **Category:** Thread Games\ **Tags:** middle-earth-game\ **Created:** [February 26, 2008, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276 "2008-02-26T20:17:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 61
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1201 "2008-10-07T22:17:56Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Not quite, but it’s been many years and I doubt I’ll be starting again now. Maybe if I live to be an old widower like my Dad. > > I had a churchwarden or two - a rather smaller version of the item Bilbo is smoking in the opening scene of _The Hobbit_ - but the tenon was too easy to break. Also one of those little curly briars, and a corncob once upon a time. Mostly smoked Gold Block, a mild honey-coloured baccy - Dad prefers St Bruno, but that was too thick and rich for me. I hear wonderful things about St. Bruno’s but can’t get it here in the states. That and Condor are two blends that are (seemingly) common in the UK I would love to try. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1202 "2008-10-07T22:23:34Z")
I sort of regret not smoking the pipe these days - I know a really good tobacconist’s (if they’re still trading - haven’t been there lately), just walking into the shop is amazing with all the scents of cherry and vanilla and whatnot, though I never smoked anything so exotic). Next I think we need to get you onto warm beer. Gwaelur would love English ale, I’m sure. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1203 "2008-10-07T22:38:13Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > I sort of regret not smoking the pipe these days - I know a really good tobacconist’s (if they’re still trading - haven’t been there lately), just walking into the shop is amazing with all the scents of cherry and vanilla and whatnot, though I never smoked anything so exotic). > > Next I think we need to get you onto warm beer. Gwaelur would love English ale, I’m sure. 😃 That reminds me, Gwaelur is packing ale. We never got into the stash before, but this seems to be a more relaxed journey. I don’t know if I could handle warm beer though. Cool beer, sure, but warm seems…so very strange. I haven’t been to the UK since I was below the legal drinking age, I really need to make my way back. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1204 "2008-10-07T22:42:05Z")
“Warm” is a misnomer. It’s cellar temperature, not fridge temperature - just like red wine should be well on the way to room temperature. And with the purists, the only fizz you get is from a very small amount of in-cask fermentation - just enough to give it some sparkle. It amuses me how Budweiser advertise their beer’s _lack_ of maturity as a selling point. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1205 "2008-10-07T22:52:18Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > “Warm” is a misnomer. It’s cellar temperature, not fridge temperature - just like red wine should be well on the way to room temperature. And with the purists, the only fizz you get is from a very small amount of in-cask fermentation - just enough to give it some sparkle. > > It amuses me how Budweiser advertise their beer’s _lack_ of maturity as a selling point. 🙂 God I know.:smack: I want to personally apologize for any of the bad american beer that has ever been foisted upon you. It isn’t all like Bud out here, I promise. Although the West Coast seems to have better beer than the East or Middle, I am not sure why that is. We do like our beer slightly chillier than even cellar temp though. Warmer than white wine, but colder than red is my personal zone. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1206 "2008-10-07T22:54:57Z")
Some beer needs to be drunk that way. And it’s not all bad. I sampled some Trappist lager in Ieper in '02 and came away thinking I understood why Trappists didn’t waste much time talking. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1207 "2008-10-08T00:38:44Z")
Tobacco in the Civil War-era South was typically shipped in big barrels called hogsheads. A 1755 illustration: [http://www.virginiaplaces.org/classschedule/graphics/fryjeff2.gif](http://www.virginiaplaces.org/classschedule/graphics/fryjeff2.gif) And one from 1875: [http://docsouth.unc.edu/nc/king/king635.jpg](http://docsouth.unc.edu/nc/king/king635.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1208 "2008-10-08T00:51:35Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Some beer needs to be drunk that way. And it’s not all bad. I sampled some Trappist lager in Ieper in '02 and came away thinking I understood why Trappists didn’t waste much time talking. 😃 I feel compelled to ask. What do you think of Bass Ale? It is pretty much all I drink now and besides it having a good taste, I love the fact it is good cold to warm unlike almost any North American beer or ale. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1209 "2008-10-08T18:31:21Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > I feel compelled to ask. What do you think of Bass Ale? It is pretty much all I drink now and besides it having a good taste, I love the fact it is good cold to warm unlike almost any North American beer or ale. Bass is OK, but it’s not my usual drink hereabouts. English beer is quite regionalised if you don’t prefer one of the big chains and we have some good bitters made not far from where I live. Where I used to work until earlier this year, we used to go for the occasional lunch at the pub attached to the [Woodforde’s brewery](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodforde%E2%80%99s_Brewery), the Fur & Feathers. They tend to have about six, maybe eight different [beers](http://www.woodfordes.co.uk/html/beers.html) of their own at any one time - mainly bitters and dark “winter” ales, and also a barley wine. All are thoroughly drinkable. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1210 "2008-10-08T19:06:35Z")
Oh, I like this game. What about Fullers, Newcastle, and Harp? They are three relatively easy to find UK beers out here. How do they stack up? I am a fan of Fullers London Pride as well as ESB. Newcastle goes down so easily that we usually keep it on hand at the house for guests (and ourselves) but I don’t really care for Harp. I like Bass, but never think to get it. ---
**Author:** ![RogueRacer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7ab992/32.png) [@RogueRacer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RogueRacer)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1211 "2008-10-08T19:19:05Z")
I suppose I shouldn’t mention that I drink Bud Light? Getting back on topic, there was a recent post in the game thread that made me question my interpretation of things. > [@glee](#): > > Ghân is fascinated by the book ‘There and back again’. He hopes that someday someone will write about the War of the Ring… My understanding was always that Bilbo started ‘There and Back Again’. Frodo received this book and added the story of the destruction of the One Ring. Sam was left to finish the last chapter. This became ‘The Red Book’ due to its red bindings, but it started life as ‘There and Back Again’. According to [Tuckborough.net](http://www.tuckborough.net/books.html#Red%20Book%20of%20Westmarch) the book changed titles many times with Frodo finally settling on: THE DOWNFALL OF THE LORD OF THE RINGS AND THE RETURN OF THE KING (as seen by the Little People; being the memoirs of Bilbo and Frodo of the Shire, supplemented by the accounts of their friends and the learning of the Wise.) Together with extracts from Books of Lore translated by Bilbo in Rivendell. Rolls off the tongue, doesn’t it? Anyway, I guess my question is when our characters saw Rohan’s copy of ‘There and Back Again’ is it complete with Frodo’s writing or was it just Bilbo’s story? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1212 "2008-10-08T19:19:52Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Oh, I like this game. > > What about Fullers, Newcastle, and Harp? They are three relatively easy to find UK beers out here. How do they stack up? > > I am a fan of Fullers London Pride as well as ESB. Newcastle goes down so easily that we usually keep it on hand at the house for guests (and ourselves) but I don’t really care for Harp. I like Bass, but never think to get it. I like Newcastle, but I don’t see it that often and I like Bass better and I can often get it on tap. I was lucky, I discovered Bass before it got popular here at an Irish Tavern back around 1995. It is rare that I find and like something and it really catches on. I am not much of a Harp fan and I have never had a Fullers. **Malacandra** , it bothers me to this day, for the brief time I was in Scotland and England in 1992, I had found another English Ale that I really enjoyed but I forget its name. It was something like John Bull but I don’t know if that is correct. It tasted great at basement temps, lets say about 55-60° F and not so great at 70° like I got it in the Lake Country. It was fairly similar otherwise in taste and colour to Bass Ale. I really need to get back to the Britain & Scotland again. I’ve been waiting for my son to get old enough to handle such a trip. I would like to get to Wales next time. **RogueRacer** : The book in Rohan was basically what we would consider the 1st edition of the Hobbit with the other reading of the Riddle Game. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1213 "2008-10-08T20:03:56Z")
> [@RogueRacer](#): > > I suppose I shouldn’t mention that I drink Bud Light? > > Getting back on topic, there was a recent post in the game thread that made me question my interpretation of things. > > My understanding was always that Bilbo started ‘There and Back Again’. Frodo received this book and added the story of the destruction of the One Ring. Sam was left to finish the last chapter. This became ‘The Red Book’ due to its red bindings, but it started life as ‘There and Back Again’. > > According to [Tuckborough.net](http://www.tuckborough.net/books.html#Red%20Book%20of%20Westmarch) the book changed titles many times with Frodo finally settling on: > > THE DOWNFALL > OF THE > LORD OF THE RINGS > AND THE > RETURN OF THE KING > (as seen by the Little People; being the memoirs of Bilbo and Frodo of the Shire, > supplemented by the accounts of their friends and the learning of the Wise.) > Together with extracts from Books of Lore translated by Bilbo in Rivendell. > > Rolls off the tongue, doesn’t it? Anyway, I guess my question is when our characters saw Rohan’s copy of ‘There and Back Again’ is it complete with Frodo’s writing or was it just Bilbo’s story? I agree with all the above. I just assumed it was only Bilbo’s book. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1214 "2008-10-08T20:11:11Z")
For the record, on the relatively rare occasions when I drink beer, I prefer Heineken, Moosehead, Dos Equis or Kirin, depending on what’s available. Hard to find a good Hobbit brand around here. Bud, Miller or Miller Light, however, are right out. ---
**Author:** ![RogueRacer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7ab992/32.png) [@RogueRacer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RogueRacer)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1215 "2008-10-08T20:18:28Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > **RogueRacer** : The book in Rohan was basically what we would consider the 1st edition of the Hobbit with the other reading of the Riddle Game. Now you’ve done it! What other reading of the riddle game? Thanks for the follow ups **What Exit?** and **glee**. One of Elfstan’s lines is a little off in that case, but it’s far from game breaking. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1216 "2008-10-08T20:22:14Z")
> [@RogueRacer](#): > > Getting back on topic, there was a recent post in the game thread that made me question my interpretation of things. > > My understanding was always that Bilbo started ‘There and Back Again’. Frodo received this book and added the story of the destruction of the One Ring. Sam was left to finish the last chapter. This became ‘The Red Book’ due to its red bindings, but it started life as ‘There and Back Again’. > … > Rolls off the tongue, doesn’t it? Anyway, I guess my question is when our characters saw Rohan’s copy of ‘There and Back Again’ is it complete with Frodo’s writing or was it just Bilbo’s story? > [@glee](#): > > I agree with all the above. I just assumed it was only Bilbo’s book. I like this new multi-quote feature, yes I do. There and Back again was basically complete when Bilbo gave it to Frodo. He also gave Frodo much writings on Elven language and history. These are much of the source materials for the Silmarillion. Frodo recorded with much help what we call the Lord of the Rings. He got parts of the tale from most of the party members, though I don’t know when he got a chance to interview that fox in the Shire. 😉 He had nearly completed the Red Book when he left the final chapter for Sam to conclude. Later or in game terms, now, Merry brought a copy of the Red Book to Minas Tirith to correct some of the Red Book and add the appendixes and parts of the prologue. I have it that he also brought a copy of the shorter work as a present for King Éomer. He also left a fair hand copy of his full study of Pipe-Weed for King Éomer. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1217 "2008-10-08T20:35:47Z")
> [@RogueRacer](#): > > Now you’ve done it! What other reading of the riddle game? > > Thanks for the follow ups **What Exit?** and **glee**. One of Elfstan’s lines is a little off in that case, but it’s far from game breaking. 😉 I didn’t catch the off-line, what was it? In the original version of the Hobbit, Gollum gave the Ring to Bilbo as a reward for winning the Riddle Contest. This is actually somewhat mentioned early in the Lord of the Rings in fact. > [@](#): > > ‘Only what Bilbo told me. I have heard his story: how he found it, and how he used it: on his journey, I mean.’ > ‘Which story, I wonder,’ said Gandalf. > ‘Oh, not what he told the dwarves and put in his book,’ said Frodo. 'He told me the true story soon after I came to live here. … > [@](#): > > Then I heard Bilbo’s strange story of how he had “won” it, and I could not believe it. When I at last got the truth out of him, I saw at once that he had been trying to put his claim to the ring beyond doubt. When Tolkien began work of the Lord of the Rings, he revised the Hobbit and from about 1939 on the story as most of us know has been the published version. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1218 "2008-10-08T20:56:11Z")
Tricksy those Hobbits are, yessssss, tricksy they are…! ---
**Author:** ![RogueRacer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7ab992/32.png) [@RogueRacer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RogueRacer)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1219 "2008-10-08T21:27:52Z")
Elfstan said something about Hobbits and how pipe weed never lasts. He mentioned the Hobbits in ‘There and Back Again’. What he was referring to would actually be in Frodo’s section of ‘The Red Book’. Like I said, far from game breaking. I’ve always considered ‘There and Back Again’ as written by Bilbo to be ‘The Hobbit’ as we know it. However, after Frodo added his bit, I’ve kept the titles interchangeable in my head, since it’s Frodo adding on to the same book. The old titles have even been crossed out! > [@What Exit?](#): > > In the original version of the Hobbit, Gollum gave the Ring to Bilbo as a reward for winning the Riddle Contest. This is actually somewhat mentioned early in the Lord of the Rings in fact. I remember the lines from LotR where Gandalf is reconciling Bilbo’s story. I just never knew that Tolkien originally wrote ‘The Hobbit’ that way. Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276/1220 "2008-10-08T22:38:19Z")
> [@RogueRacer](#): > > Elfstan said something about Hobbits and how pipe weed never lasts. He mentioned the Hobbits in ‘There and Back Again’. What he was referring to would actually be in Frodo’s section of ‘The Red Book’. Like I said, far from game breaking. > > I’ve always considered ‘There and Back Again’ as written by Bilbo to be ‘The Hobbit’ as we know it. However, after Frodo added his bit, I’ve kept the titles interchangeable in my head, since it’s Frodo adding on to the same book. The old titles have even been crossed out! > > I remember the lines from LotR where Gandalf is reconciling Bilbo’s story. I just never knew that Tolkien originally wrote ‘The Hobbit’ that way. Interesting. Well by good luck your minor confusion would work for Elfstan in two ways. Elfstan had read the Red Book from cover to cover as you grew up with it. So he could make the very mistake you had him make and further, I mentioned that Merry had left a copy of his full version of “Concerning Pipe-weed” with the King that Elfstan had only read the short version of. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276.md?page=60) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-d-on-the-straight-dope-setup-thread-in-middle-earth-fa63/439276.md?page=62)