# D-Day or H-Bomb? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 6, 2014, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183 "2014-06-06T10:44:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/21 "2014-06-06T16:50:45Z")
Eh, Japan at least had a coherent strategy for continuing the war when it was clear that they were on the losing side - they wanted to make the prospect of invading the Home Islands so dreadful and so bloody that the US would accept a peace proposal more favourable to Japan than unconditional surrender. Hitler meanwhile felt that the German people had simply failed him and wanted to go down in flames without any thought for strategic considerations. Consider his reply to Speer about his ‘Nero Decree’; _“There is no necessity to take into consideration the basis which the people will need to continue even a most primitive existence. On the contrary, it will be better to destroy these things ourselves, because this nation will have proved to be the weaker one and the future will belong solely to the stronger eastern nation. Besides, those who will remain after the battle are only the inferior ones, for the good ones have all been killed.”_ I doubt therefore that even A-bombs on their own would convince Hitler to surrender. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/22 "2014-06-06T17:06:23Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > … and all of Europe would be part of the Soviet Union. That’s the important bit. The allies already knew that they had won - What we were all fighting for then was to stop the Soviets from doing what Hitler and the Nazis had failed to do. There was also the worry that Hitler might develop his own bomb and he had the missiles to launch it. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/23 "2014-06-06T17:16:40Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Japan’s decision to surrender was stalemated in the cabinet 3-3 even after the dropping of both atomic bombs with the military leadership wanting to continue the war, a stalemate only broken when Hirohito came down in favor of surrender. I’m sure it just slipped your mind, but the body in question was the Supreme War Council, which outranked the cabinet in real power. The members included the Big Six: Prime Minister: Admiral Kantarō Suzuki Minister of Foreign Affairs: Shigenori Tōgō Minister of the Army: General Korechika Anami Minister of the Navy: Admiral Mitsumasa Yonai Chief of the Army General Staff: General Yoshijirō Umezu Chief of the Navy General Staff: Admiral Soemu Toyoda Note that only the Minister of Foreign Affairs was a civilian. He was joined by the PM and Admiral in supporting the surrender. Also note that the most powerful person in the room would be Gen. Anami rather than the PM. As the Meiji constitution had the Ministers of the Army and Navy directly report to the emperor (although in reality, they exercised a great deal of autonomy) and as an added bonus, if either of them resigned, that would bring down the government. The military branches could refuse to allow any of their members to be appointed as replacements, which would prevent another government from being formed. I’ve posted this before, but one of the most interesting aspect of the final internal negotiations was why Gen. Anami didn’t get up to take a piss and just walk out of the bunker underneath the Imperial Palace. The government would fall and he would automatically become the ruler of Japan. Hirohito would be taken to the special underground bunker “palace” in Nagano and ignored. In addition, the chiefs of staff of the two branches also nominally reported to the emperor as well, and were outside of the control of the cabinet. Hirohito’s decision to intervene was technically unconstitutional. His role was to “accept” the advice of the leaders and not to impose his will. This could be one reason for him not moving earlier. The other reason was the real fear of a coup. > [@Kobal2](#): > > I reeaally don’t know about that. Consider, for example, that after the Emperor formally not\_quite\_surrendered (he never pronounced the words, merely alluded to “big difficulties in continuing the war” or somesuch) a cadre of officers tried to stage a coup to keep on fighting. > > Minister Koizumi, pretty much the most influential of Japan’s war council, was aware of the plan and while he did not exactly support it, he did nothing to stop it either, preferring to let the chips fall where they may. He topped himself when the coup failed. Minister Anami, of course, and he killed himself before the coup failed. As I said above, he could have carried out a bloodless coup himself, had he been so inclined. Although we don’t have as much information about his thoughts, every indication was that he was torn between loyalties to the emperor, his view of the nation, the army and his fellow officers. > [@](#): > > As well there were quite a few attemps on the Führer’s life throughout the war, including some by high echelon guys; but none against the rulers of Imperial Japan (that I’m aware of). It was actually the military fanatics who were assassinating anyone who opposed them prior to the beginning of the war. Even Admiral Yamamoto was a target of the crazies at one stage. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/24 "2014-06-06T17:41:13Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > We didn’t need atomics to turn [German](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Hamburg_in_World_War_II) [cities](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II) to ashes. > > Destroying German cities in 1943-1944 didn’t force a withdrawal from occupied Europe. Maybe the novelty of nuclear weaponry might have, or it might not have. I’d argue that the supreme German leader was much less rational (and susceptible to scaring) than his Japanese equivalent. Not to mention that Germany had a bomb program also, and would be much better able to assess the number of bombs we could manufacture. Plus, if they held out, the fact that we had a bomb would offer clues about how they could make one. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/25 "2014-06-06T17:43:23Z")
> [@Suicide](#): > > wait a year, let jerry take over europe, then nuke berlin munich and frankfurt…hitler’s on his knees and it’s over and no americans lost, that’s the bottom line Maybe I don’t understand this sentence, but you are aware that in 1944 the Germans had taken over Europe with a few exceptions I hope. The Russians were advancing in the East and we were moving up Italy, but most of the continent (except for Great Britain) was in German hands. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/26 "2014-06-06T17:52:11Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > Minister Anami, of course :smack: Yes. Brain fart. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/27 "2014-06-06T18:40:47Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > As the Meiji constitution had the Ministers of the Army and Navy directly report to the emperor (although in reality, they exercised a great deal of autonomy) and as an added bonus, if either of them resigned, that would bring down the government. The military branches could refuse to allow any of their members to be appointed as replacements, which would prevent another government from being formed. > > I’ve posted this before, but one of the most interesting aspect of the final internal negotiations was why Gen. Anami didn’t get up to take a piss and just walk out of the bunker underneath the Imperial Palace. The government would fall and he would automatically become the ruler of Japan. Hirohito could have gotten around this (in theory, at least) since the requirement that the army and navy minister’s positions could only be filled by active duty officers was put in place via an imperial command following the 2/26 Incident in 1936; it’s not in the Meiji Constitution. So Hirohito could have theoretically prevented the government from falling by issuing a new command lifting that requirement. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/28 "2014-06-06T19:39:56Z")
> [@Isilder](#): > > They wouldn’t have been able to use the A bomb before D day … there was no target to use it on that they could get to. Germany didn’t have suitable targets on the coast. > > While the allies had air superiority in terms of aeroplanes in the sky, the Germans had a lot of anti-air craft guns at the targets and along the way in between. > [@Kobal2](#): > > From where ? While suicide’s suggestion has many other problems, I don’t believe this was one of them. By mid-1944, the Allies had air superiority over Europe and were conducting regular daylight bombing raids into the heart of Germany with ever decreasing losses. Fast forward a year and we’d have had near total air supremacy. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/29 "2014-06-06T19:43:23Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I reeaally don’t know about that. Consider, for example, that after the Emperor formally not\_quite\_surrendered (he never pronounced the words, merely alluded to “big difficulties in continuing the war” or somesuch) a cadre of officers tried to stage a coup to keep on fighting. “[T]he war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan’s advantage”. Adding to the vagueness of the language was that it was the first time the Emperor was directly addressing his subjects and was spoken in formal, classical Japanese. [Gyokuon-hōsō](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyokuon-h%C5%8Ds%C5%8D): > [@](#): > > The speech was probably the first time that an Emperor of Japan had spoken (albeit via a phonograph record) to the common people. It was delivered in the formal, classical Japanese that few ordinary people could easily understand. It made no direct reference to a surrender of Japan, instead stating that the government had been instructed to accept the terms of the Potsdam Declaration fully. This created confusion in the minds of many listeners who were not sure if Japan had surrendered. The poor audio quality of the radio broadcast, as well as the formal courtly language in which the speech was composed, worsened the confusion. ---
**Author:** ![Suicide](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Suicide](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suicide)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/30 "2014-06-06T22:20:55Z")
didn’t the usa test dozens of a- and h- bombs in the nevada desert? they could’ve done a few less test and saved some for germany ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/31 "2014-06-06T22:25:10Z")
> [@Suicide](#): > > didn’t the usa test dozens of a- and h- bombs in the nevada desert? they could’ve done a few less test and saved some for germany The first test was in New Mexico, 16 July, 1945. Germany surrendered on 7 May 1945. So they’d need to time travel in order to drop A-bombs on Germany during the war, an ability they lacked. ---
**Author:** ![gazpacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6f9a4e/32.png) [@gazpacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gazpacho)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/32 "2014-06-06T22:35:09Z")
> [@Suicide](#): > > didn’t the usa test dozens of a- and h- bombs in the nevada desert? they could’ve done a few less test and saved some for germany The US tested one bomb in New Mexico before using them on Japan. The nuclear tests in Nevada were after the war. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/33 "2014-06-06T23:24:05Z")
> [@Suicide](#): > > didn’t the usa test dozens of a- and h- bombs in the nevada desert? they could’ve done a few less test and saved some for germany Yesssss. The U.S. did test hundreds of a-h bombs. But when they were thinking of dropping one on Nazi Germany, the U.S. didn’t have any working models. When the U.S. did have a working model, Nazi Germany had already surrendered. VE DAY - May 8, 1945 Trinity test - July 16, 1945 ---
**Author:** ![standingwave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@standingwave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/standingwave)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/34 "2014-06-06T23:30:08Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > From where ? We wait until we have ICBMs and then we nuke Berlin from Kansas. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/35 "2014-06-06T23:30:31Z")
As in the other thread (Canadian participation on D-Day), you should probably read a decent book on WWII. You make a number of factual errors that could be addressed by a simple reading of history. To clarify the thread a bit, here’s a timeline: D-Day: June 1944 Battle of the Bulge: Dec 1944 - Jan 1945 VE Day: May 1945 Trinity Test (first use of atomic weapon): July 1945 Atomic Bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki: August 1945 Bikini Atoll A-Bomb tests: July 1946 … 1st USSR atomic bomb test: 1949 Korean War: 1950 - 1953 1st US H-bomb test: July 1952 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/36 "2014-06-06T23:46:16Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > The first test was in New Mexico, 16 July, 1945. Germany surrendered on 7 May 1945. So they’d need to time travel in order to drop A-bombs on Germany during the war, an ability they lacked. This is a key factor. If we had decided to postpone our invasion and wait until we had an atom bomb ready, we would have ended up neither invading or dropping an atom bomb against Germany. The Soviets would have kept fighting with or without us and they would have defeated the Germans before we had a bomb ready. ---
**Author:** ![Suicide](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Suicide](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suicide)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2014, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/37 "2014-06-07T00:30:22Z")
i know there are thousands out there, but can you recommend ONE good book about ww2 to get started on? like a ‘ww2 for dummies’ or some such? you know, to answer such basic questions as what side was uruguay on in ww2? does anyone know? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2014, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/38 "2014-06-07T00:33:08Z")
> [@Suicide](#): > > you know, to answer such basic questions as what side was uruguay on in ww2? does anyone know? > **[World War II by country](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participants_in_World_War_II#Uruguay)** > > Almost every country in the world participated in World War II. Most were neutral at the beginning, but only a relative few nations remained neutral to the end. The Second World War pitted two alliances against each other, the Axis powers and the Allied powers. It is estimated that 74 million people died, with estimates ranging from 40 million to 90 million dead (including all genocide casualties). The main Axis powers were Nazi Germany, the Empire of Japan, and the Kingdom of Italy; while the ---
**Author:** ![installLSC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/54ee81/32.png) [@installLSC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/installLSC)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2014, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/39 "2014-06-07T02:22:26Z")
Also consider the damage simply waiting around would do to the war effort. We now know the Soviets seriously considered peace offers in 1942 and 1943. Even if the US had told Stalin about the A-bomb program, why do you think he would continue to fight an incredibly bloody campaign while the western Allies just sat around waiting for their miracle weapon? Plus how could the British and American publics sustained such a massive war effort while their troops just sat around and did nothing? And another factor is that attacking Germany with an A-bomb equipped aircraft was far riskier than doing so to Japan. By 1945, the Japanese had no effective air or naval forces. In contrast, any attack on Germany from British territory would have to manuever large stretches of territory occupied by well trained German soldiers. There’s a good shot Fat Boy and Little Man would have never even gotten to German airspace. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2014, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/40 "2014-06-07T04:05:07Z")
> [@installLSC](#): > > There’s a good shot Fat Boy and Little Man would have never even gotten to German airspace. Or Fat Man and Little Boy, even. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183.md?page=3)