# D-Day or H-Bomb? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 6, 2014, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183 "2014-06-06T10:44:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/101 "2014-06-10T03:21:13Z")
That suggests a regional variation in the term, then. Speaking solely from my Canadian experience, I wouldn’t think of “Brit” as a pejorative. But I can see why it would have that connotation in Ireland. For a similar word with regional variation in meaning, there’s “paki”. In Britain and to some extent in Canada, it is a pejorative, but not in Pakistan itself, as explained by some Pakistani Dopers. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/102 "2014-06-10T08:45:22Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Actually, it made a little more (and a whole lot less) sense than this: He kept us out of war in Europe until the Germans declared war on us, which happened after we declared war on Japan after they bombed Pearl Harbor. The pacifists and public opinion kept the US out of the war in Europe. Roosevelt recognized the need for the war and would have moved earlier if he felt he would have had a chance of congress approving it. > [@](#): > > (Japan’s assault and (accidentally) subsequent declaration of war makes a lot more sense: It wanted the Pacific, we were active in the Pacific, and nobody knew that, one, we’d actually care enough about our relatively minor Pacific holdings to go to war over them, and, two, that we’d even be able to rearm fast enough to do anything about it if we did.) The message which was accidentally delivered after Pearl Harbor was not a declaration of war, rather an ambiguous statement that they would be breaking off negotiations. [A discussion on wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes#Attacks_on_Pearl_Harbor.2C_Malaya.2C_Singapore.2C_and_Hong_Kong) concerning Japanese war crimes: > [@](#): > > Article 1 of the 1907 Hague Convention III – The Opening of Hostilities prohibited the initiation of hostilities against neutral powers “without previous and explicit warning, in the form either of a reasoned declaration of war or of an ultimatum with conditional declaration of war” and Article 2 further stated that “[t]he existence of a state of war must be notified to the neutral Powers without delay, and shall not take effect in regard to them until after the receipt of a notification, which may, however, be given by telegraph.” Japanese diplomats intended to deliver the notice to the United States thirty minutes before the attack on Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, but it was delivered to the U.S. government an hour after the attack was over. Tokyo transmitted the 5,000-word notification (commonly called the “14-Part Message”) in two blocks to the Japanese Embassy in Washington, but transcribing the message took too long for the Japanese ambassador to deliver it in time.[45] The 14-Part Message was actually about sending a message to U.S. officials that peace negotiations between Japan and the U.S. were likely to be terminated, not a declaration of war. In fact, Japanese officials were well aware that the 14-Part Message was not a proper declaration of war as required by the 1907 Hague Convention III – The Opening of Hostilities. They decided not to issue a proper declaration of war anyway as they feared that doing so would expose the possible leak of the secret operation to the Americans. The actual [declaration of war](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_declaration_of_war_on_the_United_States_and_the_British_Empire) was published in Japanese papers in the evening of December 8th, it starts off > [@](#): > > By the grace of Heaven, Emperor of Japan [Emperor Shōwa], seated on the throne occupied by the same dynasty from time immemorial, enjoin upon ye, Our loyal and brave subjects: > > We hereby declare War on the United States of America and the British Empire. The men and officers of Our Army and Navy shall do their utmost in prosecuting the war. Our public servants of various departments shall perform faithfully and diligently their respective duties; the entire nation with a united will shall mobilize their total strength so that nothing will miscarry in the attainment of Our war aims. Actually, Japan fully expected the US to fight, however they anticipated that the US would give up fairly soon and negotiate a settlement. > [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > Don’t forget that Germany admitted defeat first and shipped all of it’s secrets about unlocking the atom using pure water to Japan via German U-boat. Japan did not have the resources to design and make an atomic bomb, with or without any help the Germans could have provided. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/103 "2014-06-10T09:00:23Z")
Regarding Roosevelt and keeping the US out of war, it is worth noting that 1940 and 1941 featured some massive expansion and modernization of the US military. Without that, WWII would have started with the Japanese air forces fighting against American pilots flying biplanes. Whether or not he wanted to stay out of the fight, he definitely saw the need to be prepared for it. Si vis pacem… And 1940 and 1941 did see the US Atlantic Fleet carrying out Neutrality Patrols, where they would engage any German ships they found in the western Atlantic. Arguably, Hitler simply saw a declaration of war as giving permission for his ships to shoot first rather than second. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/104 "2014-06-10T11:21:27Z")
In 1941 the US was not in any mood for war. The memories of WW1 were fresh in everyones minds and the anger of why we had gotten into that war had not been forgotten either. The peace movement was huge and Roosevelt knew no Lusitania incident alone could get the people riled up enough to do the massive mobilization needed to win such a war. They needed another incident on the scale of the firing on Fort Sumter by the Confederates in 1861 and Pearl Harbor was it. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/105 "2014-06-10T11:24:16Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > The pacifists and public opinion kept the US out of the war in Europe. Roosevelt recognized the need for the war and would have moved earlier if he felt he would have had a chance of congress approving it. > > The message which was accidentally delivered after Pearl Harbor was not a declaration of war, rather an ambiguous statement that they would be breaking off negotiations. > > [A discussion on wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes#Attacks_on_Pearl_Harbor.2C_Malaya.2C_Singapore.2C_and_Hong_Kong) concerning Japanese war crimes: > > The actual [declaration of war](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_declaration_of_war_on_the_United_States_and_the_British_Empire) was published in Japanese papers in the evening of December 8th, it starts off > > Actually, Japan fully expected the US to fight, however they anticipated that the US would give up fairly soon and negotiate a settlement. > > Japan did not have the resources to design and make an atomic bomb, with or without any help the Germans could have provided. No, but they were trying and what they did do is create a bunch or radioactive material and the plan was to send these submarine aircraft carriers to the US which could then launch their planes and dump this material over several west coast cities like San Fransisco. Poisoning possibly hundreds of thousands of people. Thankfully they were not able to do so. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/106 "2014-06-10T11:27:03Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > The word President George Bush used about North Korea and Iran comes to mind, “Evil axis”. > > . . . They were evil and they were in cahoots. Which is more than you can say about North Korea and Iran! ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/107 "2014-06-10T11:52:30Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > No, but they were trying and what they did do is create a bunch or radioactive material and the plan was to send these submarine aircraft carriers to the US which could then launch their planes and dump this material over several west coast cities like San Fransisco. Poisoning possibly hundreds of thousands of people. > > Thankfully they were not able to do so. This is absurd. Marvel Comics is not the best source material for actual history. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/108 "2014-06-10T12:28:40Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > This is absurd. Marvel Comics is not the best source material for actual history. Well, there’s a tiny kernel of truth in there : the Japanese did have a plan to send all three of their I-400 submarine aircraft carriers due east. However, their mission was not to spray radiological material around, rather they were to make a “simple” bombing run on the locks of the Panama canal in order to prevent the now free (because Germany had gone bye-bye) Atlantic Fleet from merging with the Pacific one. The plan was scrapped when the Allies took over Okinawa, the submarines ordered back home with a quickness to try and attack American aircraft carriers. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/109 "2014-06-10T14:13:35Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Well, there’s a tiny kernel of truth in there : the Japanese did have a plan to send all three of their I-400 submarine aircraft carriers due east. However, their mission was not to spray radiological material around, rather they were to make a “simple” bombing run on the locks of the Panama canal in order to prevent the now free (because Germany had gone bye-bye) Atlantic Fleet from merging with the Pacific one. > > The plan was scrapped when the Allies took over Okinawa, the submarines ordered back home with a quickness to try and attack American aircraft carriers. And of course, the submarine aircraft carriers were sunk. I’m not sure if they were ever even equipped with planes. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/110 "2014-06-10T14:32:36Z")
Huh ? Yes, they did have planes, and pilots for them too. The subs were surrendered as part of Japan’s defeat, then sunk after the war was over (and after the US could get a good long look at their nuts and bolts. But before the Russians could). ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/111 "2014-06-10T15:02:00Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > And of course, the submarine aircraft carriers were sunk. I’m not sure if they were ever even equipped with planes. After the Sen Toku Type subs had successfully tested transporting and launching planes, they were sent to attack the Caroline Islands. No actual air attacks were made but the planes did make the trip. M6A Seiran - I-400 Torpedo Bomber \*The Japanese Navy formed 631st Naval Air Group to operate these submarine-borne seaplanes. The group initially operated at Kure, Japan, but the presence of surrounding mountains which posed danger led to the relocation of the group by Yashiro Island further south in mid-Mar 1945. Shortly after, they joined their submarine carriers at Nanao on the coast of the Sea of Japan. Although the original vision for M6A Seiran attack aircraft involved dropping bombs on New York, New York, United States to demoralize the American people or destroying the top of the Gatun Locks thus using the power of water to seriously damage the Panama Canal, no such mission would ultimately be executed; planning for such strikes was canceled in early Jun 1945 in favor of targets closer to Japan. **In Jul 1945, two I-400-class submarines each carrying three M6A1 Seiran aircraft and two modified AM-class submarines each carrying two M6A1 Seiran aircraft were sent on an attack on the American anchorage of Ulithi in the Caroline Islands,** but the Japanese surrender was announced before the task force reached their target, and the mission was ultimately aborted. Thus, none of the M6A Seiran aircraft were ever used in combat. In all, 29 aircraft of this design were built, including 8 M6A1 prototypes, 18 M6A1 production aircraft, 2 M6A1-K Nanzan land-based trainers, and 1 M6A2 prototype. Production ceased in Jul 1945.\* > **[M6A Seiran Torpedo Bomber](https://ww2db.com/aircraft_spec.php?aircraft_model_id=236)** > > M6A Seiran Torpedo Bomber I-400 found - [http://combinedfleet.com/discovery.htm](http://combinedfleet.com/discovery.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Quatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bc8723/32.png) [@Mr\_Quatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Quatro)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/112 "2014-06-11T01:30:24Z")
What about the I-400 submarine that launched a seaplane that fire bombed Oregon hoping to start a huge forest fire? I think an I-400 sunk 700 miles off San Francisco, but I’m not sure it was the same sub that fire bombed Oregon. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/113 "2014-06-11T02:09:10Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > What about the I-400 submarine that launched a seaplane that fire bombed Oregon hoping to start a huge forest fire? > > I think an I-400 sunk 700 miles off San Francisco, but I’m not sure it was the same sub that fire bombed Oregon. Cite? (Hint, you’ll never find one, but please look.) Where do you get the ideas you’ve shared in this thread? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/114 "2014-06-11T02:35:45Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > What about the I-400 submarine that launched a seaplane that fire bombed Oregon hoping to start a huge forest fire? > > I think an I-400 sunk 700 miles off San Francisco, but I’m not sure it was the same sub that fire bombed Oregon. The Oregon _Lookout Air Raid_ firebombing was carried out by a Yokosuka E14Y1 floatplane launched from the I-25. The I-25 was smaller than the I-400 type. > **[Yokosuka E14Y](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yokosuka_E14Y)** > > The Yokosuka E14Y (Allied reporting name Glen) was an Imperial Japanese Navy reconnaissance seaplane transported aboard and launched from Japanese submarine aircraft carriers, such as the I-25 during World War II. The Japanese Navy designation was "Type 0 Small Reconnaissance Seaplane" (零式小型水上偵察機). > The E14Y was used for several Japanese reconnaissance missions during the Pacific War. > On 26 February 1942, the Japanese submarine I-25, under the command of Captain Akiji Tagami, was off the norther... > **[Japanese submarine I-25](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_submarine_I-25)** > > I-25 (イ-25) was a B1 type (I-15-class) submarine of the Imperial Japanese Navy that served in World War II, took part in the Attack on Pearl Harbor, and was the only Axis submarine to carry out aerial bombing on the continental United States in World War II, during the so-called Lookout Air Raids, and the shelling of Fort Stevens, both attacks occurring in the state of Oregon. > I-25, displaced 2584 long tons surfaced and 3654 long tons submerged and was 108 m (354 ft 4 in) long, with a range of 2... > **[Lookout Air Raids](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lookout_Air_Raids)** > > The Lookout Air Raids were minor but historic Japanese air raids that occurred in the mountains of Oregon, several miles outside Brookings during World War II. > On September 9, 1942, a Japanese Yokosuka E14Y Glen floatplane, launched from a Japanese submarine, dropped two incendiary bombs with the intention of starting a forest fire. However, with the efforts of a patrol of fire lookouts and weather conditions not amenable to a fire, the damage done by the attack was minor. The attack was the f... The E14Y1 had an air cooled radial engine and could carry 2- 168 lb incendiary bombs. The I-400’s M6A1 Seiran had a liquid-cooled V12 engine and could carry an 1,870 lb torpedo or 2- 550 lb bombs. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/115 "2014-06-11T02:39:04Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > What about the I-400 submarine that launched a seaplane that fire bombed Oregon hoping to start a huge forest fire? > > I think an I-400 sunk 700 miles off San Francisco, but I’m not sure it was the same sub that fire bombed Oregon. > **[Incendiary balloon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_balloon)** > > An incendiary balloon (or balloon bomb) is a balloon inflated with a lighter-than-air gas such as hot air, hydrogen, or helium, that has a bomb, incendiary device, or Molotov cocktail attached. The balloon is carried by the prevailing winds to the target area, where it falls or releases its payload. > In 1792, Joseph-Michel Montgolfier suggested using balloons for bombing British forces in Toulon. In 1807, Denmark tried to build a dirigible to bomb British ships blockading Copenhagen. In 1846 a ... No evidence that subs were used in the program. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/116 "2014-06-11T03:48:45Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > [Incendiary balloon - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_balloon) > > No evidence that subs were used in the program. There were two separate firebombing efforts. One by hot air balloon and one by submarine aircraft. The balloon attacks were more successful. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/117 "2014-06-11T04:25:43Z")
> [@TheBori](#): > > Waiting a year would have seen the fall of continental Europe. Nah. Allied bombing raids were reducing Germany’s industrial capacity to nearly nothing from some months before D-Day until right up near the end of the war. The Allies had long since won the Battle of Britain, and it was clear that with American supplies, material, and pilots and aircraft flooding into Britain, the Germans weren’t going to be able to mount a successful attack of the islands, especially not while they were busy losing millions of soldiers in Russia. > [@Kobal2](#): > > From where ? From England. Even after the Allied armies had crossed into Germany proper, most of the bombing raids were launched from bases in England. There wasn’t really a good reason to launch from newly-freed France or Germany; those places were too recently bombed by the Allies and looted by the Germans during their retreat. Much easier to keep your supply lines intact within England when you’re talking about something as complex as thousands of high-tech aircraft. > [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > I’m not sure how much it mattered. By the end of the war, we had total air superiority over Germany and were already carpet bombing the major cities and industrial centers. Most of this bombing was already well outside fighter escort range anyway. Even that wasn’t sufficient. Better planes might have made the bombing more efficient, but I don’t see why that would make surrender any more attractive that it already was. > > What was a sufficient inducement in Europe was boots on the ground, particularly the Russians from the East. And even then, that was after Hitler was dead. The guy wasn’t planning on surrendering at any point under any circumstances. One point that I haven’t seen anyone make is that there was a real and realistic fear that the Germans might develop the atomic bomb first. After all, it was the [Einstein-Szilard Letter](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein%E2%80%93Szil%C3%A1rd_letter) that kicked off the Manhattan Project. Many of the researchers working on the Manhattan Project were German or German-Jewish refugees, and Germany has a historical reputation for being one of the top scientific countries in the world; indeed, German chemists and physicists were among the best in the world at that time, and have historically contributed more to the field of chemistry than most nations, arguably more than any other single nation. While we know now that there was no realistic possibility of the Germans developing the bomb before America, the idea that the Germans might make a workable bomb first would be a major worry for those Allied planners who knew of the possibility. The D-Day invasion was a necessity partly because we couldn’t know that the Germans weren’t ready to ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/118 "2014-06-11T09:16:47Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > From England. Even after the Allied armies had crossed into Germany proper, most of the bombing raids were launched from bases in England. There wasn’t really a good reason to launch from newly-freed France or Germany; those places were too recently bombed by the Allies and looted by the Germans during their retreat. Much easier to keep your supply lines intact within England when you’re talking about something as complex as thousands of high-tech aircraft. I figured “let the Nazis run loose in Europe and sort it all out later with A-bombs” implied no Lend-Lease either (what for ? A-bombs !), no ships given, no convoy escorts, no USAAF bombers & fighters based in England, no Torch landings and so on. Why put these men at risk ? A-bombs ! In that paradigm, it’s not particularly unlikely that Britain would have fallen. They came pretty close as it is. For that matter, the bombing raids that brought Germany to its knees involved quite a few American birds and men, bombers and fighters both. I’m sure that bastard Harris could have gone to town regardless, but the magnitude of destruction would have been very different. I guess nuclear runs could still have been flown from Russia (again, with the caveat that absent Lend-Lease, they might very well have thrown in the towel), but I highly doubt [Joe](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sh378oyTQWQ) would have forgone such a golden opportunity to put his greedy little hands on an early nuke. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/119 "2014-06-11T21:41:29Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I figured “let the Nazis run loose in Europe and sort it all out later with A-bombs” implied no Lend-Lease either (what for ? A-bombs !), no ships given, no convoy escorts, no USAAF bombers & fighters based in England, no Torch landings and so on. Why put these men at risk ? A-bombs ! > > In that paradigm, it’s not particularly unlikely that Britain would have fallen. They came pretty close as it is. For that matter, the bombing raids that brought Germany to its knees involved quite a few American birds and men, bombers and fighters both. I’m sure that bastard Harris could have gone to town regardless, but the magnitude of destruction would have been very different. Sure, sure. I thought that the OP was talking about 1944, three years after the US’s entry into the war. The question was whether it was better to stay in a holding pattern, bombing the crap out of mainland Europe and waiting for the A-bomb to be ready, or invade in June 1944, like we did in the real world. Since by June 1944 the Allies were already doing a damn good job achieving air superiority over occupied Europe and even over Germany itself, if they’d focused their energy, money, and industrial capacity into expanding that air war for another year without the massive investment in land forces, I’m positive that they could have delivered Fat Man or Little Boy to Berlin from England without a hitch. > [@](#): > > I guess nuclear runs could still have been flown from Russia (again, with the caveat that absent Lend-Lease, they might very well have thrown in the towel), but I highly doubt [Joe](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sh378oyTQWQ) would have forgone such a golden opportunity to put his greedy little hands on an early nuke. Absolutely. But hell, once Japan is out of the picture, you could probably deliver a nuke from a carrier-based B-25, like the ones that made the Doolittle raid. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183/120 "2014-06-11T23:04:55Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > Absolutely. But hell, once Japan is out of the picture, you could probably deliver a nuke from a carrier-based B-25, like the ones that made the Doolittle raid. A B-25 Mitchell? You’d never fit _Little Boy_ or _Fat Man_ in that, it was only a medium bomber with two engines. _Enola Gay_ and _Bockscar_ were a four engined B-29 and even they had to be specially modified to fit the payload (the [‘Silverplate’](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silverplate#Initial_phase) modifications for nuclear missions), they had to replace the entire bomb bay for instance. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/d-day-or-h-bomb/690183.md?page=7)