# DACA if Mexico pays for the wall. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 7, 2017, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daca-if-mexico-pays-for-the-wall/795750 "2017-09-07T19:25:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daca-if-mexico-pays-for-the-wall/795750/121 "2018-12-31T12:39:12Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think I understand how tariffs work. > > Did you know that no one wants other countries to tariff their products? If it costs them nothing, why don’t they like it? Yes, tariffs increase costs of imported goods it also puts pricing pressure on the exporter. So in a very real sense, tariffs impose a cost on the exporter… Hurting other people economically is a side effect (desired or not) that has nothing to do with paying for the wall. In real dollars the wall would be funded by american consumers the way you suggest, not by mexicans. It is a bit of slight of hand, making it look like Mexico is paying by spending our money to make them suffer. But, no under this the US consumer is flipping the bill. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2019, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daca-if-mexico-pays-for-the-wall/795750/122 "2019-01-03T20:46:42Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Hurting other people economically is a side effect (desired or not) that has nothing to do with paying for the wall. In real dollars the wall would be funded by american consumers the way you suggest, not by mexicans. > > It is a bit of slight of hand, making it look like Mexico is paying by spending our money to make them suffer. But, no under this the US consumer is flipping the bill. We talked about this for quote a while. Its not worth going over again but tariffs protect domestic production by hurting foreign imports. In real dollars the wall would be funded by a combination of increased US consumer purchase prices and lowered Mexican supplier sales prices. Tariffs are not entirely borne by the consumer, they almost never are. Anyways. Funding the wall for DACA. Is it still as far fetched as some people thought it was? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2019, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daca-if-mexico-pays-for-the-wall/795750/123 "2019-01-03T20:47:42Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Only if you believe that Donald is operating in good faith, this time. What does good faith have to do with anything? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2019, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daca-if-mexico-pays-for-the-wall/795750/124 "2019-01-03T20:51:15Z")
Honesty is a prerequisite for contracts, capitalism, deals, agreements, etc. Individual-1 has shown that he is dishonest. He showed that for decades prior to when the intellectually and morally stunted made him President, he has shown nothing but that since. He has no honor, no ability to enter into a “good faith” _anything_, much less an agreement. Therefore, “dealing” with him is useless. Not even his own party can get him to agree with them. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2019, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daca-if-mexico-pays-for-the-wall/795750/125 "2019-01-03T20:53:29Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > What does good faith have to do with anything? Well, when you are negotiating with someone who is not operating in good faith, then you can have no confidence that ANYthing that they agree to in the negotiations will actually be forthcoming. Therefore, the negotiations are effectively meaningless and thus completely pointless. Good faith in negotiations is of absolute prime importance, otherwise there ARE NO ACTUAL negotiations at all - just theater. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2019, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daca-if-mexico-pays-for-the-wall/795750/126 "2019-01-03T20:54:27Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > What does good faith have to do with anything? Trump regularly changes his mind. He’ll agree to something and then talk to some asshole and change his mind. There’s not much possibility of negotiating with such a dishonest and dishonorable person. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daca-if-mexico-pays-for-the-wall/795750/127 "2019-01-04T07:46:43Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > We talked about this for quote a while. Its not worth going over again but tariffs protect domestic production by hurting foreign imports. But, wouldn’t Mexico counter by putting tariffs on US exports? ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daca-if-mexico-pays-for-the-wall/795750/128 "2019-01-04T08:17:41Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > We talked about this for quote a while. Its not worth going over again but tariffs protect domestic production by hurting foreign imports. Until the increased prices caused by tariffs cause other industries to crater a la Bush II’s steel tariffs. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daca-if-mexico-pays-for-the-wall/795750/129 "2019-01-04T13:59:41Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Well, when you are negotiating with someone who is not operating in good faith, then you can have no confidence that ANYthing that they agree to in the negotiations will actually be forthcoming. Therefore, the negotiations are effectively meaningless and thus completely pointless. > > Good faith in negotiations is of absolute prime importance, otherwise there ARE NO ACTUAL negotiations at all - just theater. To put more meat on this bone, here’s an inside view of the negotiations at the White House this week: > [@](#): > > Inside a contentious meeting in the Situation Room at the White House on Wednesday, the usually reserved Vice President Pence leveled a sharp accusation at Senate Minority Leader Charles E. Schumer: He never bothered to respond to an offer to reopen the government that Pence made days earlier. > > Schumer was prepared with a response. Turning to President Trump, the New York Democrat reminded him that he said this week he wouldn’t accept less than the $5.6 billion in wall funding that was approved by House Republicans late last year — far more than the $2.5 billion Pence was proposing. > > “Didn’t you, Mr. President?” Schumer pressed. > > The president, with his arms folded, smiled and nodded, according to two people familiar with the meeting who requested anonymity to discuss the private discussions. > **[Trump proves an enigmatic negotiator as government shutdown continues with no...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-proves-an-enigmatic-negotiator-as-government-shutdown-continues-with-no-end-in-sight/2019/01/03/ccbededc-0f87-11e9-84fc-d58c33d6c8c7_story.html?utm_term=.a1047d4391d4)** > > Despite Trump’s unpredictability, lawmakers are wary of negotiating with any of his aides because they believe only Trump speaks for Trump. So in this meeting, the Vice President’s offer to end the shutdown with half a loaf of wall funding wasn’t even seriously considered, because Trump had undercut that offer by saying that he won’t accept a compromise. Imagine going into a car dealership and bargaining for a car, where the sticker says $25,000. You offer $22,000. The salesman comes back with $23,000. You say you’ll take it. Then the salesman says, actually I meant $25,000, and why didn’t you respond to my offer of $21,000?!?! That is basically what is happening right now – the White House is not negotiating in good faith. It’s just a shitshow. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daca-if-mexico-pays-for-the-wall/795750/130 "2019-01-04T14:04:22Z")
That was quite a humiliating moment for Pence: “Why didn’t you accept my proposal?” “Your boss said your proposal sucked. Right, boss?” “Yes, his proposal sucked, I agree.” ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daca-if-mexico-pays-for-the-wall/795750/131 "2019-01-04T14:35:02Z")
But at least it was an attempt at negotiation. Unlike the great ‘deal maker’… ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daca-if-mexico-pays-for-the-wall/795750/132 "2019-01-04T14:51:02Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > That was quite a humiliating moment for Pence: > > “Why didn’t you accept my proposal?” > “Your boss said your proposal sucked. Right, boss?” > “Yes, his proposal sucked, I agree.” The real cherry on top was when Trump pleaded for Dems to compromise, because if they didn’t agree to wall funding, it would make Trump look bad. He is the single worst negotiator I have ever seen. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daca-if-mexico-pays-for-the-wall/795750/133 "2019-01-04T14:59:53Z")
“We could’ve compromised with his bill?” “Didn’t you hear me? His bill sucked. Right, Pence?” “Right!” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daca-if-mexico-pays-for-the-wall/795750/134 "2019-01-04T16:32:03Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Honesty is a prerequisite for contracts, capitalism, deals, agreements, etc. > > Individual-1 has shown that he is dishonest. He showed that for decades prior to when the intellectually and morally stunted made him President, he has shown nothing but that since. He has no honor, no ability to enter into a “good faith” _anything_, much less an agreement. > > Therefore, “dealing” with him is useless. Not even his own party can get him to agree with them. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Well, when you are negotiating with someone who is not operating in good faith, then you can have no confidence that ANYthing that they agree to in the negotiations will actually be forthcoming. Therefore, the negotiations are effectively meaningless and thus completely pointless. > > Good faith in negotiations is of absolute prime importance, otherwise there ARE NO ACTUAL negotiations at all - just theater. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Trump regularly changes his mind. He’ll agree to something and then talk to some asshole and change his mind. There’s not much possibility of negotiating with such a dishonest and dishonorable person. So if they pass a budget with funding for a wall, he’s STILL going to veto it? Republicans haven’t been acting in good faith since Obama got elected. This is not that much different. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daca-if-mexico-pays-for-the-wall/795750/135 "2019-01-04T16:50:46Z")
> [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > But, wouldn’t Mexico counter by putting tariffs on US exports? How much do you think we export to Mexico? We export more to China. Mexico loses any trade war with us. They lose badly. > [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Until the increased prices caused by tariffs cause other industries to crater a la Bush II’s steel tariffs. Which industries cratered? “A majority of steel-consuming businesses reported that neither continuing nor ending the tariffs would change employment, international competitiveness, or capital investment.[10]” - [2002 United States steel tariff - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_United_States_steel_tariff#Impact) The tariffs on steel and aluminum are probably not a good idea but we have excluded some major steel producers from the tariff (which onnly mitigates the effect) and the aluminum tariff is 10%, enough to make a difference, not enough to crater an industry. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daca-if-mexico-pays-for-the-wall/795750/136 "2019-01-04T16:56:11Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > How much do you think we export to Mexico? > > We export more to China. > > Mexico loses any trade war with us. They lose badly. I assume that more than what Mexico exports to the US, since there’s more industry. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daca-if-mexico-pays-for-the-wall/795750/137 "2019-01-04T16:59:43Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So if they pass a budget with funding for a wall, he’s STILL going to veto it? > > Republicans haven’t been acting in good faith since Obama got elected. This is not that much different. Who knows? He literally got a bill with **$25,000,000,000** in wall funding and [still shot it down](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-13/how-trump-let-his-goal-of-building-a-border-wall-slip-away). Fuck him. There’s no need to give in to this weakling. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daca-if-mexico-pays-for-the-wall/795750/138 "2019-01-04T17:00:47Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So if they pass a budget with funding for a wall, he’s STILL going to veto it? > > Republicans haven’t been acting in good faith since Obama got elected. This is not that much different. If it had DACA in it, and Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh started complaining, then I think it’s quite likely he’d veto it. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daca-if-mexico-pays-for-the-wall/795750/139 "2019-01-04T17:12:53Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Which industries cratered? > > “A majority of steel-consuming businesses reported that neither continuing nor ending the tariffs would change employment, international competitiveness, or capital investment.[10]” - [2002 United States steel tariff - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_United_States_steel_tariff#Impact) > > The tariffs on steel and aluminum are probably not a good idea but we have excluded some major steel producers from the tariff (which onnly mitigates the effect) and the aluminum tariff is 10%, enough to make a difference, not enough to crater an industry. Guess you just stopped right there, and missed: > [@](#): > > A study from 2003 that was paid for by CITAC (Consuming Industries Trade Action Coalition), a trade association of businesses that use raw materials, found that around 200,000 jobs were lost as a result. Didn’t crater (which was hyperbole), but that’s more jobs than the steel industry in it’s entirety employs. Manufacturers are already line-iteming the “tariff fees” that result in higher prices for the consumer. You know, Americans who are actually paying for the tariffs. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daca-if-mexico-pays-for-the-wall/795750/140 "2019-01-04T17:44:45Z")
> [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > I assume that more than what Mexico exports to the US, since there’s more industry. “$557 billion traded with a $71 billion deficit.” > **[Why America Cannot Just Make Everything It Needs](https://www.thebalancemoney.com/trade-deficit-by-county-3306264)** > > The United States has its largest trade deficits with China, Canada, Mexico, Japan, and Germany. The reasons are different for each of them. US trade is a MUCH larger portion of the Mexican economy than Mexican trade is of the US economy. Mexico loses trade wars with the USA badly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daca-if-mexico-pays-for-the-wall/795750.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/daca-if-mexico-pays-for-the-wall/795750.md?page=8)