# Dads and daughters...your opinions of Mulan (Disney), please? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 29, 2005, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dads-and-daughters-your-opinions-of-mulan-disney-please/319062 "2005-08-29T04:02:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dads-and-daughters-your-opinions-of-mulan-disney-please/319062/21 "2005-08-29T20:17:06Z")
I love the boot camp song, “I’ll Make a Man Out of You.” ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dads-and-daughters-your-opinions-of-mulan-disney-please/319062/22 "2005-08-29T20:22:41Z")
I love the movie. I cry every time he says the line to her “The greatest gift and honor is having a daughter like you.” I waited my whole life (and am still waiting) for my dad to say anything remotely like that, even “I’m proud of you” and I fear I’ll never hear it. As for the legend, it wasn’t ruined too badly IMO. My SO is Chinese, and all of the women in his family - his mom, his aunts, etc., - love it. They all own it. They watch it with their daughters. So…as well as Disney can do, but not too bad. I \*am \* a little resentful of the fact that the animation is positively crappy compared to a movie like Hercules. Just look at everything that is going on in the background in Hercules, clouds moving, grass moving, and Mulan is very simplistic. I honestly think they didn’t expect it to do very well so didn’t put much money into it. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dads-and-daughters-your-opinions-of-mulan-disney-please/319062/23 "2005-08-29T22:05:36Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > I love the boot camp song, “I’ll Make a Man Out of You.” I always have to resist the urge to yell “Huzzah!” when she passes the test. Then again, I have to resist the same urge when the Ghostbusters show up for their encouter with Zuul, so maybe I’m just weird. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dads-and-daughters-your-opinions-of-mulan-disney-please/319062/24 "2005-08-31T06:44:30Z")
I think Mulan is great. Actually in pin yin her name is Hua Mu Lan. Jackie Chan does voice in the Chinese version. Sure it’s kinda hookey but we watch it a lot. My favorite part is when Mulan throws down the arrow and has a big shit eating grin on her face. BTW, I watch it with my 3 Chinese daughters. Well, they are actually sino-American joint ventures. (my wife is Chinese). the 5 year old has watched it for years - the 8 month old twins have an attention span of about 5 minutes but am sure they will grow into it. You have really cute girls and I’ve been to everyone one of those places you described. My favorite is Guizhou. It’s a wonderful thing you’re doing. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dads-and-daughters-your-opinions-of-mulan-disney-please/319062/25 "2005-08-31T07:51:48Z")
I’m a 25 year old guy who knows nothing of the source material for the movie. It was the last Disney film I saw in a theater, and I liked it quite a bit. I thought it was a very good movie, with a nice change of pace for the female lead (as others have mentioned). And, I’m a sap, so the child/parent relationship got me. My biggest beef was that I felt the music seemed to have no connection with the story, theme, or mood. It would have been a much better movie with different music, or even none at all. I don’t remember 'cause it’s been a while, but I seem to recall thinking during many of the songs, “oh, guess they had to do this here because a Disney animated film’s supposed to have music. Too bad It’s pulling me right out of the story.” Also, comic relief sidekick Eddie “Mushu” Murphie was totally rediculous and formulaic. Hey, let’s get a black guy talking jive talk! They’re always good for laughs. Something else that completely detracted from the movie. But, still, good movie. I liked it mostly. And, minor hijack: > [@Campion](#): > > **jrfranchi** , have you turned your kids on to 1-2-3 Contact? I loved that show when I was a kid; I don’t know if it’s still on, but it was great. That’s 3-2-1 Contact. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dads-and-daughters-your-opinions-of-mulan-disney-please/319062/26 "2005-08-31T08:03:27Z")
> [@NoCoolUserName](#): > > Personal detail: > 1st adopted daughter is now 4, was 10 months when we adopted her. She was found in WuZhou city, GuangXi province and is probably a farm girl from somewhere nearby. > 2nd adopted daughter is now 3, was adopted at 20 months. She is from GuiYang city in GuiZhou province. Probably a city girl. > 3rd adopted daughter is 6. She is from HangZhou, ZheJiang province where she had lived 3 years with a foster family. We brought her home in March '05. > > We also have bio boys 21 and 22 and girls 19 and 17. You have _seven kids_? The next time Mom asks for grandchildren, I’m going to use you as an excuse. ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dads-and-daughters-your-opinions-of-mulan-disney-please/319062/27 "2005-08-31T11:33:19Z")
> [@Campion](#): > > Exactly. Mulan just gets to do tough boy things, like climb trees and stuff, while Belle (thanks – forgot her name) does the more traditional female things, like (it’s been too long since I’ve seen it) rearrange the cupboards and dance? Well, I never really liked _Beauty and the Beast_, but I did like how they set up the character of Belle. She was beautiful (hence the name), but that was inconsequential to her – she was much more interested in reading and seeing more of the world. There was that whole song about “there must be more than this provincial life.” (Which was a very clever double entendre, if you ask me.) I wouldn’t say that _Mulan_ is a step farther than _Beauty and the Beast_ in its portrayal of women, unless you think that the only way a woman can prove her value is to do guy things. Seems to me that the most positive message is the freedom to do what you want, not just fulfill one traditional role instead of another. That’s what _Mulan_ is about on the surface, but I think it’s significant that she didn’t necessarily _want_ to do tough boy things, and in fact she thought they were just as stupid as all the girly things they tried to get her to do at the beginning. She was only doing it because she felt it needed to be done, and in that sense she’s the same as Belle. The consistent line through all the Disney movies, at least since _The Little Mermaid_, isn’t so much about women’s roles as it is about learning how to find your place when it seems you don’t fit in anywhere. In that sense, it’s not just between Belle and Mulan and Ariel, but also includes Lilo, Stitch, the main (and forgettable) characters from _Atlantis_ and _Treasure Planet_, Tarzan, Aladdin, and some others I’m sure I’m forgetting. Now whether a message of independence and being yourself is still valid when it’s been pounded into a formula by a huge multinational entertainment consortium – that’s for people other than me to decide. ---
**Author:** ![NoCoolUserName](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5fc32e/32.png) [@NoCoolUserName](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NoCoolUserName)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dads-and-daughters-your-opinions-of-mulan-disney-please/319062/28 "2005-09-04T13:58:30Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > You have _seven kids_? The next time Mom asks for grandchildren, I’m going to use you as an excuse. Yeah, 7. One bio-kid, 3 step-kids, 3 adopted kids. Feel free to use me as any sort of excuse, but…what sort of excuse am I for not having grandkids? ---
**Author:** ![monica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a183cd/32.png) [@monica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monica)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dads-and-daughters-your-opinions-of-mulan-disney-please/319062/29 "2005-09-04T14:55:53Z")
> [@Miss Purl McKnittington](#): > > My biggest beef with _Beauty and the Beast_ is that Belle and the Beast basically start with an abusive relationship. It’s a little Jane Eyre-ish, really. He treats you bad, honey! Why are you falling in love with him? He locks your father in the tower for asking for directions, he’s moody, verbally abusive, and attempts to deny Belle food. It buys into the whole myth that you can change a man, that when he’s an ass, he doesn’t actually mean it because he’s just misunderstood. Belle puts up with all that crap, and in the end she is rewarded a shining prince, with whom she will presumably live happily ever after. Don’t get me wrong, I like the movie, it’s just that when you step back to look at it, the WTF quotient is high. Except (and correct me if I’m wrong; it’s been a long time since I’ve seen the movie) it wasn’t all just Belle putting up with abuse. It was Belle sacrificing herself to free her elderly father from the Beast’s grasp. Remember, the father got to leave in return for Belle staying. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dads-and-daughters-your-opinions-of-mulan-disney-please/319062/30 "2005-09-04T19:20:51Z")
> [@NoCoolUserName](#): > > Yeah, 7. One bio-kid, 3 step-kids, 3 adopted kids. Feel free to use me as any sort of excuse, but…what sort of excuse am I for not having grandkids? Well, if some people go around having seven kids, some other people have to have none to balance out. Right? ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dads-and-daughters-your-opinions-of-mulan-disney-please/319062/31 "2005-09-04T19:44:27Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > Well, if some people go around having seven kids, some other people have to have none to balance out. Right? Use him as an example, and Mom might harp on you instead for not adopting too to give her those grandkids that way 😛 Mothers are wile like that. ---
**Author:** ![NoCoolUserName](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5fc32e/32.png) [@NoCoolUserName](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NoCoolUserName)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dads-and-daughters-your-opinions-of-mulan-disney-please/319062/32 "2005-09-04T20:04:28Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > Well, if some people go around having seven kids, some other people have to have none to balance out. Right? Many of our friends are so happy for us because they feel we’ve taken the burden off of them. Glad to help out. (Note that I only “had” one–all the others I’ve taken on responsibility for, but their entrances into the world were not my decision. :)) Back to the OP, some moments that move me: Even Aragorn saying > [@](#): > > My friends, you bow to no one. pales before the scene where the Emperor and everyone in the city (and, by extension, everyone in China) bows to MuLan because she has saved China\*. Not the least because there likely was a real MuLan. And when she takes credit for her work: Shan Yu: No! [He turns to Shang, who is now conscious.] You! You took away my victory! [He is hit by a shoe.] Mulan: No! I did. [She pulls back her hair.] Shan Yu: The soldier from the mountain! \*I’ve heard a great deal about you, Fa Mulan. You stole your father’s armor, ran away from home, impersonated a soldier, deceived your commanding officer, dishonered the Chinese Army, destroyed my palace, and… you have saved us all. ---
**Author:** ![Burnt\_Sugar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee59a6/32.png) [@Burnt\_Sugar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Burnt_Sugar)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dads-and-daughters-your-opinions-of-mulan-disney-please/319062/33 "2005-09-04T22:35:40Z")
I haven’t seen Mulan, but I just wanted to say I smiled when I saw the pic of those little girls. They’re so cute and look so happy! ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dads-and-daughters-your-opinions-of-mulan-disney-please/319062/34 "2005-09-04T23:26:19Z")
My problem with Beauty & The Beast, which people have danced around without actually saying it, is that it romanticizes Stockholm Syndrome. With showtunes. “Be our guest” my ass… ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dads-and-daughters-your-opinions-of-mulan-disney-please/319062/35 "2005-09-04T23:32:57Z")
I enjoyed Mulan when I saw it. I think it’s great how Disney has moved away from Western Europe for their source material. Robin ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Purl\_McKnittington](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@Miss\_Purl\_McKnittington](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Purl_McKnittington)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dads-and-daughters-your-opinions-of-mulan-disney-please/319062/36 "2005-09-04T23:54:36Z")
**Ethilrist** , that’s an absolutely perfect way of putting it. Succinctly, sweetly. > [@monica](#): > > Except (and correct me if I’m wrong; it’s been a long time since I’ve seen the movie) it wasn’t all just Belle putting up with abuse. It was Belle sacrificing herself to free her elderly father from the Beast’s grasp. Remember, the father got to leave in return for Belle staying. That’s true, but that doesn’t exonerate her from becoming positive-emotionally invested in the Beast. That she had to bargain for her father’s life is enough to warrant some lifelong resentment. It was more than getting started on the wrong foot. As upthread, it romanticizes Stockholm Syndrome. ---
**Author:** ![Kiminy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Kiminy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiminy)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dads-and-daughters-your-opinions-of-mulan-disney-please/319062/37 "2005-09-05T00:17:04Z")
For the OP–I am a mother, rather than a father, and we have a 14yo daughter (natural American, not adopted and not Chinese–MUCH to her current anti-American dismay). However, I really thought that Mulan showed a lot more courage than would be expected even of a 21st-century American girl, and I never had any qualms about letting my daughter watch it. I don’t know the original Chinese story. However, the movie does show a young girl/woman who is not afraid to stand up for herself, and who is willing to accept risks that threaten her own life to save both her family and her country. I can’t see any true comparisons between _Mulan_ and Disney’s _Beauty and the Beast_, though. I LOVED French fairy tales when I was growing up, and Disney’s version of Beauty and the Beast doesn’t compare to the original Perrault story, where the girl gives her life willingly to spare her father’s life, in comparison to her sisters’ selfishness and willingness to lose their father as long as they get the things they desire. However, in the original story, Belle truly believes that she is giving up life, not just freedom, when she offers to take her father’s place in the palace. In the Disney story, it is assumed that the viewers have already heard the story, and know how it will end before they come to the movie, so there is no heart-wrenching parting when Belle leaves for the Beast’s palace. Disney’s _Mulan_, however, is a story that any 20th-century Western girl can relate to, as long as they do not believe that they must obey the men in their lives, and that they can make decisions for themselves. In fact, I think that Mulan’s story is much closer to the Disney version of _Pocahontas_, which at least shows that females have a right to choose their own destiny, even if it isn’t historically accurate. However, let’s not get into _Mulan II_, which is an absolute joke, as far as I am concerned. ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dads-and-daughters-your-opinions-of-mulan-disney-please/319062/38 "2005-09-05T02:48:01Z")
I like this movie a lot, mostly for reasons already mentioned. A couple of comments of my own: I didn’t like the songs the first few times I saw it but they mostly grew on me. But I agree that the movie could easily have been made without them. I think that is why I originally responded negatively to them, because they pulled me out of the movie. I realize this is a ridiculous complaint but I think the plot of the movie makes little sense after the avalanche.[spoiler] That should have been the climax, she gets thanked by the Emperor, goes home and reconciles with her father. The whole business about the 5 remaining Huns sneaking into the castle just to kill the Emperor (where are you going to go after that?) had me shaking my head in disbelief the first time I saw it. I just don’t see the characters’ motivation. Though I do like Mulan’s idea that the soldiers should sneak into the castle disguised as women…no one knows better than her how women are overlooked in that world.[/spoiler] And yes, the jive talking sidekick thing has been done to death. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dads-and-daughters-your-opinions-of-mulan-disney-please/319062/39 "2005-09-05T05:02:48Z")
I really loved it. What can I say, I’m a sucker. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dads-and-daughters-your-opinions-of-mulan-disney-please/319062/40 "2005-09-05T05:19:03Z")
> [@NoCoolUserName](#): > > I’ve heard people rave about how the movie trivializes the original Chinese legend, and how the songs suck and etc., but I don’t find it that bad. I think most rants are based on the book that was supposedly the basis for the movie: _Warrior Woman_, by Maxime Hong Kingston. Disney has never been known for its accuracy when remaking legends/fairytales into movies, anyway. We studied _Warrior Woman_ in one of our Asian-American lit classes and a lot of Kingston’s contemporaries condemn her for supposedly exploiting the stories of a culture she claims as her own but actually knows nothing about. _Mulan_ is probably the last Disney animated film I really enjoyed. That general (damnit, can’t remember his name) was soooooo hot. (heh) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dads-and-daughters-your-opinions-of-mulan-disney-please/319062.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dads-and-daughters-your-opinions-of-mulan-disney-please/319062.md?page=3)