# DADT repeal: National security destroyed, our soldiers raped in their sleep **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 19, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dadt-repeal-national-security-destroyed-our-soldiers-raped-in-their-sleep/564737 "2010-12-19T18:32:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dadt-repeal-national-security-destroyed-our-soldiers-raped-in-their-sleep/564737/61 "2010-12-20T15:58:54Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Okay - settle down kids. > > I think I am fairly well on record here supporting lifting DADT. But let’s not kid ourselves - sexual misconduct can be committed by homosexuals as well as heterosexuals. This can include everything from harassment to rape - and I saw examples of both committed by gay sailors in just a short five-year enlistment. And lifting DADT won’t change this one little bit. So it’s a non-argument, for either opposition or support. Here are the basic facts\*: Gays and lesbians have _always_ been in the military. They always _will_ be present, no matter what the official rules are. As a whole, gays and lesbians are no better, and no worse, than their straight counterparts. Now, whatcha gonna do? The US fighting man (and, where Congress will permit, woman) has done a pretty damn good job by our country. so, you going waste time and effort sniffing sheets (which is expensive, in terms of actual investigatory cost, in unit morale, and in loss of trained, qualified soldiers), or you gonna man up and let 'em be? Well, _finally_ we’ve manned up. Rather late in the game, but better late than never. Bryan Fischer doesn’t understand that this is _their_ country too, and they love it as much as I do - And should be allowed the privilege of putting their lives on the line in its defense. But then, what _is_ Mssr. Fischer’s military experience..? Oh, wait - He has NONE. Guess he must not be man enough. _15 years military experience talking here. I’ve served with gays and lesbians - Self-confessed._\* Some were damn good - truly outstanding. Some were horrible excuses for human beings _or_ sailors, but the _vast_ majority were right-down-the-middle-average. \*\*Yes, techincally I should have turned them in. Tough shit - I can’t see losing a good sailor for something that minor, and the ones that _were_ real shitheads, well, _there_, there are more important, more justifiable reasons and ways of booting out of the service. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dadt-repeal-national-security-destroyed-our-soldiers-raped-in-their-sleep/564737/62 "2010-12-20T16:32:08Z")
Who was it that postulated that the battle over gay rights was really between gay people and self-hating gay people? The more of this stuff I see, the more I’m convinced they were right. In the meantime, I’m just laughing at that Freeper mod’s unintentional hilarity. “The gay agenda is anti-freedom of speech. Therefore, anyone discussing it will be banned.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dadt-repeal-national-security-destroyed-our-soldiers-raped-in-their-sleep/564737/63 "2010-12-20T17:13:50Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > INT. **Bryan Ekers** ’s house. > > Bryan writes first sentence. > Bryan pounds 12 shots of tequilla. > Bryan writes second sentence. It’s an allusion to _Huckleberry Finn,_ you ignorant clod. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dadt-repeal-national-security-destroyed-our-soldiers-raped-in-their-sleep/564737/64 "2010-12-20T17:15:57Z")
> [@Tranquilis](#): > > Gays and lesbians have _always_ been in the military. > They always _will_ be present, no matter what the official rules are. Well, **duh!** What kinda people do ya **think** are going to be most attracted to a career where you have to spend such long periods of time cut off from opposite-sex company?! ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dadt-repeal-national-security-destroyed-our-soldiers-raped-in-their-sleep/564737/65 "2010-12-20T17:26:56Z")
I have a crazy idea! What about we start taking rape really seriously in the military and then maybe sexual assault won’t be such a problem! Nah, it would never work. ---
**Author:** ![vd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b19c9b/32.png) [@vd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vd)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dadt-repeal-national-security-destroyed-our-soldiers-raped-in-their-sleep/564737/66 "2010-12-20T17:31:38Z")
> [@](#): > > …re-enlistments will eventually drop like a rock. 😕 Not right away, but at some indeterminate time after the repeal, re-enlistments will suddenly drop? Disable similes in text ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dadt-repeal-national-security-destroyed-our-soldiers-raped-in-their-sleep/564737/67 "2010-12-20T17:46:55Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, **duh!** What kinda people do ya **think** are going to be most attracted to a career where you have to spend such long periods of time cut off from opposite-sex company?! I know you’re trying to be funny - Sorry, it didn’t work. I don’t do ‘funny’ all that well anyway. But I’ll give you an answer - The vast majority are like me: Hetero. A minority, though likely a somewhat larger minority than you’d find in the population at large, are homosexual. The military is a meritocracy, and that always appeals to motivated minorities. @ **vd** : Naaah. Oh there might be a slight dip, for a little while, but nothing that recruiters couldn’t keep up with. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dadt-repeal-national-security-destroyed-our-soldiers-raped-in-their-sleep/564737/68 "2010-12-20T18:01:19Z")
> [@Tranquilis](#): > > I know you’re trying to be funny - Sorry, it didn’t work. I don’t do ‘funny’ all that well anyway. But I’ll give you an answer - The vast majority are like me: Hetero. A minority, though likely a somewhat larger minority than you’d find in the population at large, are homosexual. The military is a meritocracy, and that always appeals to motivated minorities. Interesting (and very plausible) theory, but I suspect that this attraction has been offset by DADT and the boys’ club attitude endemic to any male-dominated entity. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dadt-repeal-national-security-destroyed-our-soldiers-raped-in-their-sleep/564737/69 "2010-12-20T18:12:01Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I love how all of a sudden rape is a problem. When it’s just women soldiers getting raped, hey, no biggie. To be fair, some of the same people opposing the idea of gay and straight male soldiers serving together probably also oppose male and female soldiers serving together. Mistreatment of women in the military seems to actually strengthen their case. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dadt-repeal-national-security-destroyed-our-soldiers-raped-in-their-sleep/564737/70 "2010-12-20T18:12:18Z")
You were warned [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3icDB3kRKPg) 😉 ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dadt-repeal-national-security-destroyed-our-soldiers-raped-in-their-sleep/564737/71 "2010-12-20T18:16:45Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > It’s an allusion to _Huckleberry Finn,_ you ignorant clod. > [@](#): > > I reckon I got to light out for the Territory ahead of the rest, because Aunt Sally she’s going to adopt me and sivilize me, and I can’t stand it. I been there before. > > [_Adventures of Huckleberry Finn_ > Huck’s quest for freedom, last lines of book, Chapter 43.](http://www.allgreatquotes.com/adventures_of_huckleberry_finn_quotes.shtml) Maybe we should take up a collection so he can get a copy . . . or maybe just throw quarters at him? CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dadt-repeal-national-security-destroyed-our-soldiers-raped-in-their-sleep/564737/72 "2010-12-20T18:23:06Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Interesting (and very plausible) theory, but I suspect that this attraction has been offset by DADT and the boys’ club attitude endemic to any male-dominated entity. Not hardly a theory - I _lived_ that life, and it’s observed reality. You may’ve read my eulogy for Chief Electricians Mate Liz Swindler, some years back? Lesbian, and a very good friend. She originally attracted to the service by the opportunity to gain respect and responsibility based on her own merits. Not even _remotely_ the only lesbian, though - In fact, the percentages of lesbians were much more out-ofline with the population at large than was so with gays. But straight women were hardly sitting around twidling their thumbs, either - they were busting their asses, and making names for themselves. The _real_ problem had nothing to do with DADT in those days - It was the Combat Exclusion Law - If Congress won’t allow you to go into ‘combat’\*, your career opportunities are by _definition_ limited. _That_ was a real downer when trying to recruit women. Sexual orientation was one very small aspect of the recruiting picture. Remember - I was a recruiter, too. No, DADT was mostly just a giant nuisance, an incredible waste of resource, and a shameful compromise that only covered politicians’ asses. Clinton should NEVER have accepted that cowardly cop-out. \*Recognizing that a lot of the ‘non-combat’ roles can very easily find themselves with a rife in-hand, facing an armed and determined foe. And that law (and supporting regulations) has been relaxed a LOT over the years. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dadt-repeal-national-security-destroyed-our-soldiers-raped-in-their-sleep/564737/73 "2010-12-20T18:34:16Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Yes: the poor, incredibly fit killer Marine will just lie there while somebody molests him. :rolleyes: In the interest of fairness, the Marines are part of the Navy, ergo, he would enjoy it because they are all gay in the Navy and Marines anyway. 😃 -Ex Army ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dadt-repeal-national-security-destroyed-our-soldiers-raped-in-their-sleep/564737/74 "2010-12-20T18:47:30Z")
> [@joebuck20](#): > > Also, no surprise, according to his bio, he has never served a day in the military. I am shocked. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dadt-repeal-national-security-destroyed-our-soldiers-raped-in-their-sleep/564737/75 "2010-12-20T19:32:27Z")
> [@Carmady](#): > > To be fair, some of the same people opposing the idea of gay and straight male soldiers serving together probably also oppose male and female soldiers serving together. Mistreatment of women in the military seems to actually strengthen their case. Yeah, because you can’t expect anything better when you put people together like that. Boys will be boys! ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dadt-repeal-national-security-destroyed-our-soldiers-raped-in-their-sleep/564737/76 "2010-12-20T21:06:24Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > In the interest of fairness, the Marines are part of the Navy, ergo, he would enjoy it because they are all gay in the Navy and Marines anyway. > > 😃 > > -Ex Army Still better than the Army, though. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dadt-repeal-national-security-destroyed-our-soldiers-raped-in-their-sleep/564737/77 "2010-12-20T21:29:00Z")
> [@](#): > > RSM Well, I’m afraid that the people that recruit here normally go straight into the Scots Guards. > > Mr Man Which is all… men… I suppose? > > RSM Yes it is. > > Mr Man Yes. Are there any regiments which are more effeminate than others? > > RSM Well, no sir. I mean, apart from the Marines, they’re all dead butch. > > Mr Man You see, what I really wanted was a regiment where I could be really quiet and have more time to myself to work with fabrics, and creating new concepts in interior design. > > RSM Working with fabrics and experimenting with interior design! > > Mr Man Yes. > > RSM Oh well you want the Durham Light Infantry then, sir… - the other obligatory \*Monty Python \*sketch ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dadt-repeal-national-security-destroyed-our-soldiers-raped-in-their-sleep/564737/78 "2010-12-20T21:31:08Z")
> [@Tranquilis](#): > > But I’ll give you an answer - The vast majority are like me: Hetero. A minority, though likely a somewhat larger minority than you’d find in the population at large, are homosexual. How do you know, since they’ve only been allowed to tell since two days ago? I’m not yanking your chain, that’s a serious question. I used to be a gym teacher, and that’s a profession with a stereotype for lesbians. But the fact is, you don’t know until you get to know your colleagues rather well. And there were quite a few times I saw people who were assumed to be gay turn out not to be. I wonder if in the military there will be mild surprise both at who is gay, and who isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dadt-repeal-national-security-destroyed-our-soldiers-raped-in-their-sleep/564737/79 "2010-12-20T22:05:16Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > So. Do you have a point? Are you suggesting because some gays are after cheap sex, we should discriminate against all of them? There have been lots of women in the services raped. because some men are not in control, should we not allow all men to join the services? They can not be trusted. > There are already gays in the services. Have they raped a lot of front line soldiers? :rolleyes: Yes, that’s what he’s saying. You first wrote, > [@](#): > > In fairness ,gays are looking for love and understanding like anybody else. The idea that they are looking for crude cou,ling with any man they see ,who is in good shape, is absurd. which is a statement you can’t apply to \*every \*gay man, and is no different than saying, “Well straight men are looking for love and understanding like anybody else. The idea that they are looking for crude coupling with any woman they see, who is in good shape, is absurd.” As \*\*Argent \*\*said, some are, some aren’t, and that shouldn’t mean anything regarding DADT. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dadt-repeal-national-security-destroyed-our-soldiers-raped-in-their-sleep/564737/80 "2010-12-20T22:23:13Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > How do you know, since they’ve only been allowed to tell since two days ago? > > I’m not yanking your chain, that’s a serious question. I used to be a gym teacher, and that’s a profession with a stereotype for lesbians. But the fact is, you don’t know until you get to know your colleagues rather well. Since you ask straight out, I’ll give you a straight answer (sorry 'bout the horrible pun. 😛 ). I asked. Deceptively simple, eh? Mind you, this was even _before_ DADT. Your remark about “only after getting to know your colleagues” is quite correct - But in the military, you _do_ get to know your fellows quite well. You sleep in the same box with them (or trench, barracks, what-have-you), you bathe with them, you eat with them. You go out and drink with them, and get into fights with (and beside) them. You count on them to get you back to base/ship/camp after a night’s carrousing, and they count on you. You depend on each other not only to do the day-to-day jobs, but to protect and fight for you. If you don’t trust that the man or woman beside you will give their all for you, and you’re not prepared to do the same (even if you personally hate their guts), then one of you is in the wrong place.\* So, when you know live in each other’s pockets, you learn things about others. And when you learn to trust, and are proven trustworthy, confidences are given. In my case, I sat on the couch at Liz’s place, and she quizzed me on the current crop of lesbians aboard the ship - I went eleven for twelve. The one I didn’t get outright? Liz herself. She literally put her career in my hands. I flatter myself to think I was worthy of that trust. She’s passed away now, and so I use her name in a manner that I think she would appreciate and approve. As for gays? A bit harder to pick out - But I know factually of one bisexual male, leaning strongly towards ‘gay’ - He was a shithead. We got rid of him - A real punk, and a loose cannon, besides. Busted and BCD’d for Articles 86, 87, 91, 92, 107, 117, _annnnnd_ 134. We threw the book at the dirtbag, and not a single charge having anything to do with who he was taking to bed. I was also once propositioned by an O-6 (Captain). He was very coy about it, but at the same time _quite_ unmistakable. > [@](#): > > And there were quite a few times I saw people who were assumed to be gay turn out not to be. > > I wonder if in the military there will be mild surprise both at who is gay, and who isn’t. Certainly, there are some out there that are incorectly-placed in people’s minds. It’s the nature of being human - People will assume, and will often enough be wrong. _shrug_ My guess? When the coming out (and don’t expect _too_ huge a tidal wave of it, either - some are just more comfortable being closeted) is done, most folks will be largely unsurprised. Except perhaps that some homosexuals will be startled by how many people already knew. \*This, BTW, is the root of “Unit Cohesion” commentary. To a degree, that commentary is correct, but only to a degree - If a person is trustworthy, they’ll be trusted. If they’re not, then they won’t be - Homosexuality is generally only an excuse to get rid of someone who doesn’t fit. Soldiers, Marines, and Sailors _know_ who they can trust with their lives, and who they can’t. I suspect that this is less of an issue in the Air Force, but I could be seriously mistaken. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dadt-repeal-national-security-destroyed-our-soldiers-raped-in-their-sleep/564737.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dadt-repeal-national-security-destroyed-our-soldiers-raped-in-their-sleep/564737.md?page=5)