# (Dallas, Baton Rouge) Violence is not the answer. What is? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 17, 2016, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-baton-rouge-violence-is-not-the-answer-what-is/760138 "2016-07-17T18:09:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-baton-rouge-violence-is-not-the-answer-what-is/760138/61 "2016-07-18T20:56:07Z")
Serious question, because I don’t know, but do American police follow Peel’s principles of policing? ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-baton-rouge-violence-is-not-the-answer-what-is/760138/62 "2016-07-18T23:04:27Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Serious question, because I don’t know, but do American police follow Peel’s principles of policing? Depends on the jurisdiction. First off, there’s no such thing as “American police” as a single unit. We have about 18,000 different police departments all mostly independent of each other. I’m sure some do, but for the most part, police are only answerable to their local elected officials. AFAIK, there’s no national “code of conduct” for police. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-baton-rouge-violence-is-not-the-answer-what-is/760138/63 "2016-07-18T23:15:45Z")
Who says violence isn’t the answer? Violence has worked amazingly well over the course of human history. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-baton-rouge-violence-is-not-the-answer-what-is/760138/64 "2016-07-19T01:09:27Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Who says violence isn’t the answer? Violence has worked amazingly well over the course of human history. Well, it’s AN answer, I suppose. However, I think that to ‘fix’ the problem in the OP, namely the 200+ black people killed by ‘trigger happy’ police per year, I’m unsure if shooting cops (or white people I guess) is going to really solve much…and will probably result in more deaths on all sides without actually doing much to resolve the underlying issue. In fact, my WAG is that such a course would make things worse. YMMV of course, but I don’t see a violent solution to this issue as having a happy outcome for anyone, least of all the black community in the US. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-baton-rouge-violence-is-not-the-answer-what-is/760138/65 "2016-07-19T02:00:32Z")
Does this debate change now that one of the perpetrators is now linked with a movement that grew out of Posse Comitatus, an anti-Semitic group from the 1970’s? [The Baton Rouge shooter was a sovereign citizen.](http://www.rawstory.com/2016/07/inside-the-moorish-sovereign-citizen-movement-that-motivated-the-baton-rouge-cop-killer/) I am betting that the core, home grown terrorism that is with us today due to[good old boy racism](https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2015/what-sovereign-citizen) is still placed on the backs of the BLM movement? Is it still valid to play the blame game against the victims protesting bigotry or will arguments shift to show that this is a symptom of a more systemic core problem that just attached to this issue? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-baton-rouge-violence-is-not-the-answer-what-is/760138/66 "2016-07-19T02:19:49Z")
Well, he’s Male Black Ex-Marine BLM Black cop killer into “retribution” Washitaw Nation Nation of Islam Lectures on “achieving complete and full masculinity” Why the boner over sovereign citizen? Plenty to play with here. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-baton-rouge-violence-is-not-the-answer-what-is/760138/67 "2016-07-19T02:25:24Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Well, he’s > > Male > Black > Ex-Marine > BLM > Black cop killer into “retribution” > Washitaw Nation > Nation of Islam > Lectures on “achieving complete and full masculinity” > > Why the boner over sovereign citizen? Plenty to play with here. Because one of those groups is [America’s top cop killers](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/11/25/sovereign-citizens-are-america-s-top-cop-killers.html) ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-baton-rouge-violence-is-not-the-answer-what-is/760138/68 "2016-07-19T02:43:23Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Because one of those groups is [America’s top cop killers](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/11/25/sovereign-citizens-are-america-s-top-cop-killers.html) So are two of the others. > [@](#): > > The black population in America ranged from 11.6 percent to 13 percent between 1980 to 2013. Compared to that percentage in the population, the percentage of black offenders who killed police officers appears to be disproportionately high. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/01/09/are-black-or-white-offenders-more-likely-to-kill-police/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/01/09/are-black-or-white-offenders-more-likely-to-kill-police/) ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-baton-rouge-violence-is-not-the-answer-what-is/760138/69 "2016-07-19T02:47:42Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > So are two of the others. > > [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/01/09/are-black-or-white-offenders-more-likely-to-kill-police/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/01/09/are-black-or-white-offenders-more-likely-to-kill-police/) Well if you can come back with data that shows that “black” is a biological trait, or that it defines beliefs and thoughts I think I’ll still vote for things that aren’t purely unfortunate remnants of discredited claims of causality. In other words come back with a cite that proves racial theory in some way. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-baton-rouge-violence-is-not-the-answer-what-is/760138/70 "2016-07-19T02:52:35Z")
What? Come back with a cite that proves whatever theory. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-baton-rouge-violence-is-not-the-answer-what-is/760138/71 "2016-07-19T03:06:21Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > What? Come back with a cite that proves whatever theory. You are claiming a causative correlation based on race, a concept that has been demonstrated to be false. But yes, that is how theories work, those whom make claims need to provide evidence that their theory is true. Race is a social construct is an idea or notion that appears to be natural and obvious to people who accept it but but it does not represent reality, it is an invention or artifice of a our society. Although the costs are very real. Note > [@](#): > > Table 2. Perceived Threat of Extremist Groups by Type of Group > **[START\_UnderstandingLawEnforcementIntelligenceProcesses\_July2014.pdf](https://www.start.umd.edu/pubs/START_UnderstandingLawEnforcementIntelligenceProcesses_July2014.pdf)** > > 718.42 KB You did not argue that socioeconomic or disenfranchisement as causative, you made a claim on race. So provide a cite, because it is well accepted that race is not biological, it is a purely a social construct. > **[Race Is a Social Construct, Scientists Argue](http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/race-is-a-social-construct-scientists-argue/)** > > Racial categories are weak proxies for genetic diversity and need to be phased out > **[AAA Statement on Race - The American Anthropological Association](https://americananthro.org/about/policies/statement-on-race/)** > > The following statement was adopted by the Executive Board of the American Anthropological Association on May 17, 1998, acting on a draft prepared by a committee of representative American anthropologists. \[…\] ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-baton-rouge-violence-is-not-the-answer-what-is/760138/72 "2016-07-19T03:11:32Z")
I didn’t make a claim of anything other than the hardon for sovereign citizen somehow trumps the convo. How silly. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-baton-rouge-violence-is-not-the-answer-what-is/760138/73 "2016-07-19T03:27:39Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I didn’t make a claim of anything other than the hardon for sovereign citizen somehow trumps the convo. > > How silly. By arguing that race was a factor you were arguing that race is a valid differentiator. Intentional or unintentional, implying that race is a valid factor is an argument that race is a valid concept for the categorization and classification of individuals. You provided stats that made a claim, without qualifying that the factor may be due to socioeconomic or disenfranchisement of a unsound biological identifier. If you are surprised about this, and did not intend to advocate to forward race as a valid form of classification it may be helpful to realize this before making claims that embolden those whom are racist. I provided cites on > [@](#): > > Why the boner over sovereign citizen? Plenty to play with here. Which is pit type language and an ad hominem attack as well. Phallus references aside, you have no claims based on evidence at all? Juvenile references to body functions are not known as the most effective debate tactic. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-baton-rouge-violence-is-not-the-answer-what-is/760138/74 "2016-07-19T09:51:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Who is saying “white racism” is at the root of this? From what I can tell, Black Lives Matter believes that institutional and systemic biases are the most important part. … and the wider society still doesn’t have the first clue what this means. It’s like the 1950s. in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![dreamregent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6f9a4e/32.png) [@dreamregent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamregent)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-baton-rouge-violence-is-not-the-answer-what-is/760138/75 "2016-07-19T11:15:09Z")
Politicians can facilitate dialogue between communities and the police, reform the justice system and institute policies which address the underlying problems (poverty, education, etc.). The institution of mitigating policies will require more spending and I’m skeptical much in that area will be done. I think something which may address the problem with the justice system is to completely & universally decouple the sentencing phase from the finding of fact phase and ensure the sentencing judge does not see the defendant and does not know what ethnicity or sex the person is. Indeed, even the names could be stricken so that the sentencing judge can not assume ethnicity from them. This would likely eliminate both leniency for women and the disparity in sentences between white and black defendants. However, the real heavy lifting will occur within the context of interaction between the police and communities themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Oddball\_92](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b3f665/32.png) [@Oddball\_92](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oddball_92)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-baton-rouge-violence-is-not-the-answer-what-is/760138/76 "2016-07-19T13:01:32Z")
Could it be that blacks actually commit more (street-type) crime therefore encounter police more often, thereby increasing the chances for shootings? I have never heard of a police officer simply seeing a black person on the street and shooting them for no reason. Every incident I have heard of involves the initial officer/shootee contact resulting from some form of official duty. Might be just a traffic stop, but official nonetheless. I phrase this as a question, not as a statement. ---
**Author:** ![Gedd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gedd/32/4938_2.png) [@Gedd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gedd)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-baton-rouge-violence-is-not-the-answer-what-is/760138/77 "2016-07-19T15:03:15Z")
We do have the [Ferguson Department of Justice report](https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/opa/press-releases/attachments/2015/03/04/ferguson_police_department_report.pdf). Either blacks commit 96% of the crimes or the police department that was working to bring in the $$$ was also biased. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-baton-rouge-violence-is-not-the-answer-what-is/760138/78 "2016-07-19T15:03:28Z")
Here’s a scenario where one could say is racial, but may well be about class instead: Rich white kids from the 'burbs drive into the city looking for drugs. They see a black kid and offer him $500 to go get them the drugs. Black kids knows where to get the drugs for $200, and that $300 profit is _extremely_ enticing, so he goes for it. Sure as shit stinks, he gets back and makes the delivery and some cops catch them all, black kid and rich white kids. The Police know these white kids’ parents are going to hire a mess of lawyers because rich white kids can’t get into Harvard with a felony drug conviction, so the police are going to call the parents to come pick up their kids and deal with the situation themselves. Poor black kid’s mom doesn’t have enough Food Stamps by the end of the month to pay for bus fare to go get him. This is an open-and-shut case and the DA needs some election rhetoric, so the black kid gets prison time. Is this an issue of white treated better than black … or is this an issue of rich treated better than poor ? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-baton-rouge-violence-is-not-the-answer-what-is/760138/79 "2016-07-19T15:10:01Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Here’s a scenario where one could say is racial, but may well be about class instead: > > Rich white kids from the 'burbs drive into the city looking for drugs. They see a black kid and offer him $500 to go get them the drugs. Black kids knows where to get the drugs for $200, and that $300 profit is _extremely_ enticing, so he goes for it. Sure as shit stinks, he gets back and makes the delivery and some cops catch them all, black kid and rich white kids. > > The Police know these white kids’ parents are going to hire a mess of lawyers because rich white kids can’t get into Harvard with a felony drug conviction, so the police are going to call the parents to come pick up their kids and deal with the situation themselves. Poor black kid’s mom doesn’t have enough Food Stamps by the end of the month to pay for bus fare to go get him. This is an open-and-shut case and the DA needs some election rhetoric, so the black kid gets prison time. > > Is this an issue of white treated better than black … or is this an issue of rich treated better than poor ? Do you have a citation for this scenario? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-baton-rouge-violence-is-not-the-answer-what-is/760138/80 "2016-07-19T15:19:26Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > By arguing that race was a factor you were arguing that race is a valid differentiator. Intentional or unintentional, implying that race is a valid factor is an argument that race is a valid concept for the categorization and classification of individuals. If race isn’t a valid differentiator, how can we tell which are the Black Lives that Matter? > [@](#): > > Juvenile references to body functions are not known as the most effective debate tactic. Cite? 😉 Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-baton-rouge-violence-is-not-the-answer-what-is/760138.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-baton-rouge-violence-is-not-the-answer-what-is/760138.md?page=5)