# Dallas cop kills innocent man **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 10, 2018, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119 "2018-09-10T19:32:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/201 "2018-09-12T19:38:45Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > It is illustrative though for showing that, if you believe she thought she was at her apartment, Guyger lacked the mens rea necessary to commit murder. I think it’s easier to show beyond a reasonable doubt that Guyger was reckless in her disregard for a bunch of objective evidence that she wasn’t in her apartment, and that the guy approaching her had every right to be there and every right to ignore whatever commands she may or may not have given him. That’s exactly what I was trying to say with the manslaughter vs. murder commentary- I just used intent (which is a sort of subset of mens rea, I believe) ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/202 "2018-09-12T20:16:34Z")
Not sure if this has been posted yet, either here or in the ‘bad cops’ Pit thread that people aren’t updating as frequently, but here is the Arrest Warrant and the Affidavit for the Arrest Warrant for Amber Guyger: [Amber Guyger Warrant | PDF](https://www.scribd.com/document/388281504/Amber-Guyger-Warrant) Here is a Channel 11 in Dallas article quoting local criminal defense attorneys who think the above warrant is insufficiently precise to support a finding that a crime occurred. [CBS Texas - Breaking Local News, First Alert Weather & I-Team Investigations](https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2018/09/11/criminal-defense-lawyers-no-crime-officer-shooting/) From the article: > [@](#): > > CBS 11 asked several prominent criminal defense lawyers what they thought about the warrant. > > All of them said they were surprised they didn’t see words like “reckless” or “intentional” which they say would normally be found on similar documents in manslaughter and murder cases. > > “It’s an interesting read,” said criminal defense attorney George Milner. “It doesn’t read anything beyond negligence of that they simply do not specify how she is reckless which is the required mental state for manslaughter. It reads much more like an accidental killing. I mean if someone were to drop a gun accidentally and it fired and it hit somebody.” > > Milner and others say it doesn’t necessarily mean the DA’s office doesn’t have a good case because the investigation is still ongoing. > > But he says it’s clearly a sign the Texas Rangers were careful not to implicate Officer Guyger. > > “If it was a reasonable mistake of fact, that’s an affirmable defense that is going to weigh into this thing very heavily,” said Robert Hinton, another criminal defense attorney. > > “In my honest opinion, I think if I represented her, she’d walk,” said Milner. Now, this is not an indictment. It’s a warrant that allows the police to go and arrest her for Manslaughter. The indictment is going to need to show that all of the elements of the crime are present, and one of those elements is the mental state of the offender when they committed the homicide. For Manslaughter, it’s recklessness. For Criminally Negligent Homicide, it’s negligence. And for Murder, it’s knowing your conduct was going to cause the death or you were intending that your actions would cause the death. I agree with the attorneys quoted—the warrant affidavit doesn’t mention recklessness anywhere. The recitation of facts doesn’t lead one to think the officer was reckless at all, merely mistaken. Hell, it almost makes her mistake sound reasonable. I’m sure more facts will come out—for the State’s sake, they’d damned well better—but right now, I’m not reading in that affidavit a mental state of the offender sufficient to show that the crime of Manslaughter occurred. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/203 "2018-09-12T21:55:44Z")
Thanks for the link to the arrest warrant. I have even more questions now: 1. Why does the warrant say “The door being opened alerted Complainant Jean to Guyger’s presence”? How do they know the victim was alerted by the opening door? 2. The warrant clearly states the door was “slightly ajar” when she inserted her key. Why would she insert her key into a door even slightly ajar? The warrant states the insertion of the key card pushed the door open farther. In fact, from my experience, she would have had to hold the door to steady it in order to insert the key card if the door was even slightly ajar. 3. Assuming the hallway was lit, if the apartment was “almost completely dark,” how could she see a “vague silhouette” when she entered–or much of anything at all? It takes the retinal cone cells around 10 minutes to fully adjust to the dark. It’d have to take at least a couple of minutes for her to see a vague silhouette in those conditions. 4. > [@](#): > > Due to the interior darkness of the apartment, Guyger turned on the lights while on the phone with 911.Upon being asked where she was by the emergency dispatchers, Guyger returned to the front door to determine the address and discovered she was at the wrong apartment. Why would she have to return to the front door to determine the address? (I assume the warrant means the apartment number, as the address wouldn’t be on the door.) With the lights on, even with the apartments having the exact same layout, it’d be almost immediately ( within seconds) obvious the furnishings were different. 1. Is it standard language to say “Guyger believed” on an arrest warrant? I would have thought it’d be phrased as “Guyger stated she believed.” ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/204 "2018-09-12T22:28:08Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Go ahead and check, sparky. You will find that I have never used that expression, other than to point out to others like you that I have never used it. Swing and a miss for you. Save you some time putting words in my mouth, Riemann, just because I am nice. In my posting history here, I have consistently noted that I carry a gun to protect me and mine. Not you. Not society. Me. Mine. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/205 "2018-09-12T22:51:21Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > 1. Why would she have to return to the front door to determine the address? (I assume the warrant means the apartment number, as the address wouldn’t be on the door.) With the lights on, even with the apartments having the exact same layout, it’d be almost immediately ( within seconds) obvious the furnishings were different. She believed she was in her own apartment and the fact that a stranger was there and the furnishings were different confused her. So she went to check the apartment number. It seems plausible to me. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/206 "2018-09-12T23:07:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Again referring you to Sec. 9.42(2), supra, deadly force may be used to protect property when the actor has reasonable belief that such force was immediately necessary to prevent the immediate commission of, inter alia, criminal mischief at night. § 9.42 in full (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property: > > (1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41 ;   **and** > > (2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary: > > (A) to prevent the other’s imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime;  or > > (B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property;   **and** > > (3) he reasonably believes that: > > (A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means;  or > > (B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury. [https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/penal-sect-9-42.html](https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/penal-sect-9-42.html) It starts off with \*A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property: (1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41\* Would the person be justified under Section 9.41 (bolding mine)?: > [@](#): > > (a)  **A person in lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property** is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the other’s trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property. > > (b)  **A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible, movable property by another** is justified in using force against the other when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to reenter the land or recover the property if the actor uses the force immediately or in fresh pursuit after the dispossession and: > > (1) the actor reasonably believes the other had no claim of right when he dispossessed the actor;  or > > (2) the other accomplished the dispossession by using force, threat, or fraud against the actor. [https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/penal-sect-9-41.html](https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/penal-sect-9-41.html) The person was neither in lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property or unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible, movable property, so § 9.42 appears to be moot due to (1). Also, (2), (A) and (B) say: \*(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary: (A) to prevent the other’s imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime;  or (B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property;  and\* The deadly force part must be believed to be immediately necessary, but it must be that “the other’s imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft” or “is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft” is actually taking place, not believed to be, going by a strict reading. I wouldn’t be surprised if case law has shown reasonable belief to be enough, but first we have to get past he justification in using force against the other under Section 9.41. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/207 "2018-09-12T23:10:52Z")
Of course it may be that another statute makes it so her actions are defensible. My post above is just in response to Bricker’s claim regarding Sec. 9.42(2). ---
**Author:** ![Roy\_Batty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Roy\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roy_Batty)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/208 "2018-09-12T23:17:40Z")
This is not that complicated, people. As I mentioned in my first post on this thread, either the door was locked (as initially reported) or it wasn’t (as reported later) - there is no way the door was “almost” locked. In either case, this was murder. That all being said, I can easily see how an expensive defense lawyer would be able to get this woman off - unfortunately. That also being said, I don’t see that this woman will work in LE again - but, I could be wrong about that…stranger things have happened. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/209 "2018-09-13T00:02:13Z")
> [@Roy\_Batty](#): > > In either case, this was murder. I strongly believe this was a crime, but there’s little to support that it’s murder. ---
**Author:** ![Roy\_Batty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Roy\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roy_Batty)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/210 "2018-09-13T00:06:28Z")
I may have to take back what I said in an earlier post about there being no dispute between these two. In a Yahoo article I just read, there is an indication that the woman may have made a noise complaint against the victim, and that it wasn’t the first complaint that was made. I do believe she did live directly below him; I’ve lived in apartments, and if someone above you is noisy you can really hear this if you’re directly below them. If this news about the noise complaint is true, I wonder if this had anything to do with what happened?! [https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/everything-know-off-duty-cop-144500273.html](https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/everything-know-off-duty-cop-144500273.html) This being said, there is a lot of info. coming out about this case & who knows what is true. If there were 1 or more noise complaints made, I’d like to see proof of these - if there is any, of course. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/211 "2018-09-13T02:02:43Z")
Excellent analysis of the legal issues in this case. > **[Murder charge, not manslaughter, best fits Botham Jean case because Dallas...](https://www.dallasnews.com/news/courts/2018/09/12/murder-charge-not-manslaughter-best-fits-botham-jean-case-because-dallas-officer-intended-to-shoot-experts-say/)** > > A grand jury will ultimately decided whether a Dallas police officer should be charged with murder or manslaughter — or nothing at all — for... Interesting that defense lawyers feel this isn’t a manslaughter case. Murder more closely fits the circumstances. The article goes on to explain reckless applies to shooting. It doesn’t apply to entering the wrong apartment. The explanation is further down after this quote. > [@](#): > > Longtime defense attorney Brook Busbee said the manslaughter charge doesn’t fit what law enforcement said happened in Guyger’s arrest warrant affidavit. > > “We don’t know all the facts, but the facts in the affidavit don’t appear to match the manslaughter charge, because the act of shooting him wasn’t reckless,” Busbee said. “According to the affidavit, in her mind, it was intentional.” > > Defense attorney John Creuzot, a former judge and prosecutor running against Johnson for district attorney, said in similar cases, suspects are charged with murder. The Guyger case is a “deviation from the norm,” he said. > > “I am not aware of a case in which a person shoots another person in the torso, with death as the result, and is charged with manslaughter,” Creuzot said. “In Dallas County, the longstanding practice of our law enforcement agencies, in similar cases, has been to charge suspects with murder.” ---
**Author:** ![Roy\_Batty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Roy\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roy_Batty)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/212 "2018-09-13T02:10:59Z")
Exactly - this was murder, pure and simple. She killed this innocent victim in cold blood. I’m fucking sick & tired of people in authority getting away with preferential treatment when it comes to cases like this. In fact, the opposite should be true - people in LE, the medical community, lawyers, etc. should actually be held to a higher standard of behavior that others. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/213 "2018-09-13T02:12:07Z")
Officer Guyger Jean hasn’t been fired yet? I haven’t seen any confirmation reported. I wonder if that won’t happen until a grand jury indictment? Anyone know what’s typically done? ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/214 "2018-09-13T02:20:26Z")
^ It’s Amber Guyger. She shot Botham Jean. > [@](#): > > She was placed on administrative leave immediately, but she remains an employee of the Police Department nearly a week after she killed 26-year-old Botham Jean in his Cedars apartment. > > And though the 30-year-old officer turned herself in Sunday on a manslaughter charge, decisions about her employment as a Dallas police officer will be on hold until a criminal investigation is complete, police Chief of Staff Thomas Taylor said Wednesday. > > A warrant was issued for Amber Guyger, 30, and she was arrested Sunday and booked into the Kaufman County jail on a manslaughter charge, the Texas Department of Public Safety said. (Kaufman County jail) > It’s typical for the Dallas department to wait for a criminal investigation to conclude before undertaking an internal investigation. And in this case, the Texas Rangers asked the police to wait to start the internal investigation, Taylor said. > **[Dallas police chief says she can't yet fire Amber Guyger, but it's been done...](https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2018/09/20/dallas-police-chief-says-she-can-t-yet-fire-amber-guyger-but-it-s-been-done-before/)** > > Nearly a week since Amber Guyger said she fatally shot Botham Jean after she mistook his apartment for her own, Dallas police aren't ready to discuss whether... ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/215 "2018-09-13T02:25:25Z")
My mistake for the edit typo. I was searching on Guyger Jean and forgot to edit out the other name after pasting. Officer Guyger Jean hasn’t been fired yet? Should have said… Officer Guyger hasn’t been fired yet? ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/216 "2018-09-13T03:29:40Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Officer Guyger hasn’t been fired yet? She’s on administrative leave while the shooting is investigated–standard procedure. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/217 "2018-09-13T03:31:30Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > She believed she was in her own apartment and the fact that a stranger was there and the furnishings were different confused her. So she went to check the apartment number. It seems plausible to me. According to her statement, which is contradicted by two witnesses, who said they heard her knocking on the door and demanded to be let in, as well as the claim that the victim had a red doormat. ---
**Author:** ![Roy\_Batty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Roy\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roy_Batty)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/218 "2018-09-13T03:58:54Z")
Yes. I think her story is bullshit. What it looks like actually happened was that she was knocking at the LOCKED door trying to get in & yelling - then the victim opened the door - and she killed him: > **[Botham Jean Shooting: Family's Attorney Claims Witnesses Contradict Amber...](https://www.yahoo.com/news/botham-jean-shooting-family-apos-171312877.html)** > > Jean, 26, was in his home when he was shot and killed by Officer Amber Guyger, who said she believed he was an intruder. The more I think about the details here, the more I think that this story is a lot more sinister & complex than someone going to a wrong apartment thinking it was her own. I.e., if she did genuinely believe that she was @ her own apartment, why the hell was she knocking & yelling at her own door when she couldn’t get in?! I believe she lived alone. So, there doesn’t seem to be any reason why she was yelling at someone in the apt. to open the door - unless she really thought someone was in the apartment - i.e., did she intend to kill the victim & then just put together this fabricated story about believing there was a burglar?! Again, since it sounds like she tried her key in the door and it didn’t work, shouldn’t her first thought have been to check to see if she had the right apartment/floor?! That’s what anyone else would have done in that situation. Another possibility is that - yes - she may have been impaired (due to alcohol/drugs) & not been acting logically as a result. And/or she was just suffering from extreme fatigue. But, that definitely isn’t an excuse to kill someone for no reason other than being in their own apartment. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/219 "2018-09-13T04:47:32Z")
Not saying it happened this way, just imagining different scenarios, I wonder if there is any video footage available in the hallways or the parking garage. I wonder if she really had lodged noise complaints against the victim. I could almost imagine a scenario that she arrived at her apartment after this 12-15 hour shift, got angry over noise coming from his apartment, and went up there to confront him and then something went awry. Its hard to imagine someone driven to kill over noise, but this is America and stranger things have happened. Not sure what the appropriate legal charge should be in this case, but I imagine if it was not a police officer that they would be charged with murder, its pretty hard to defend the killing even if there was some perfect storm of events that made her accidentally enter the wrong apartment. Either way someone that makes a mistake like that definitely shouldn’t keep her job, too much responsibility and power in the hands of someone that would make such an egregious error. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/220 "2018-09-13T05:20:44Z")
> [@pool](#): > > I could almost imagine a scenario that she arrived at her apartment after this 12-15 hour shift, got angry over noise coming from his apartment, and went up there to confront him and then something went awry. I’ve been hesitant to speculate it, but that’s one of the first things that went through my mind. Having lived in a downstairs apt I’m all to familiar with noisy upstairs neighbors. I can imagine her knocking on the door, him not responding, her yelling (verbal commands) to open the door and with her anger at a peak shooting when he finally did. I’m not saying I believe that this is what happened, but it did cross my mind. And given the “facts” that have been released it fits better that the official version. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119.md?page=12)