# Dallas cop kills innocent man **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 10, 2018, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119 "2018-09-10T19:32:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/261 "2018-09-13T22:41:30Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > A man alone at night, at home, in his underwear, in the dark, making excessive noise. That, on its face, seems unlikely. But I think the hypothesis is not that she’s responding to _current_ noise, but that she had previously complained about noise, perhaps more than once, and decided at the end of her shift (on the way home) to first stop at his apartment, in uniform, to confront him about it. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/262 "2018-09-13T22:52:08Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > But I think the hypothesis is not that she’s responding to _current_ noise, but that she had previously complained about noise, perhaps more than once, and decided at the end of her shift (on the way home) to first stop at his apartment, in uniform, to confront him about it. Ah, ok. Still though, seems an inappropriate or at least odd time to confront an apartment neighbor face-to-face to address previous noise issues. 10:00 at night? But it does make more sense than the scenario I was responding to. But that is still a pretty low bar. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/263 "2018-09-13T23:00:24Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > The police searched Jean’s apartment for narcotics. > [Why Did Dallas Police Search a Man's Home for 'Narcotics' After One of Their Own Killed Him?](https://reason.com/blog/2018/09/12/frfrfr) This is beyond fucked be up. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/264 "2018-09-13T23:20:28Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Ah, ok. Still though, seems an inappropriate or at least odd time to confront an apartment neighbor face-to-face to address previous noise issues. 10:00 at night? But it does make more sense than the scenario I was responding to. But that is still a pretty low bar. I’m picturing a scenario where’s she’s tired, drunk, and/or drugged, and on the way home got a bug in her ear about how he kept her up two nights ago, and _that’s not gonna happen tonight, dammit!!_ And so she stopped by to have a little chat… ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/265 "2018-09-13T23:21:16Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Because shooting an innocent man is just fine if you’re sober? > > Oh wait, cop shoots black man. That explains it all away. Please show me where I implied it was aok if she was sober. I clearly did not imply any such thing! ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/266 "2018-09-13T23:24:16Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I’m picturing a scenario where’s she’s tired, drunk, and/or drugged, and on the way home got a bug in her ear about how he kept her up two nights ago, and _that’s not gonna happen tonight, dammit!!_ And so she stopped by to have a little chat… Exactly. And so she goes there directly, and in uniform, thinking as a cop she can intimidate him. And after things go to shit, since she parked on his floor, she thinks up this lame story about mistaken apartments. If this is what happened, am I unreasonably optimistic that any evidence that she filed out a prior noise complaint will surely be enough that any jury will dismiss her implausible story? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/267 "2018-09-13T23:48:06Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > This is beyond fucked be up. …yah think that’s fucked up? BLM Activist Shaun King asked the police for the results of the search on Guyger’s home. > [@Shaun King](#): > > BREAKING: Since authorities searched the apartment of murder victim #BothamJean & released the results I just asked them for the results of the warrant of Amber Guyger’s home -since she was the perpetrator. > > Guess what they said? > > IT DOES NOT EXIST. > > They NEVER searched her home! [https://twitter.com/shaunking/status/1040381511302828033](https://twitter.com/shaunking/status/1040381511302828033) They protect their own. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/268 "2018-09-14T00:36:11Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > The police searched Jean’s apartment for narcotics. > [Why Did Dallas Police Search a Man's Home for 'Narcotics' After One of Their Own Killed Him?](https://reason.com/blog/2018/09/12/frfrfr) FWIW I’ve seen people who are familiar with Texas search warrants say that the “any contraband, such as narcotics” language is boilerplate on all warrants. (Though they are now trying to [push](http://www.fox4news.com/news/search-warrant-marijuana-found-in-botham-jeans-apartment-after-deadly-shooting) that OMG he had the devil weed in his apartment.) ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/269 "2018-09-14T00:41:37Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > What makes more sense here? That he’s flashing white supremacist signs that happen to look like a 69 (from the brother-in-law’s perspective) at a 69th birthday party family photo, or that he is, simply, flashing the age of the father? It would also be dead simple for the media to look up the age of the dad and contradict the story if the age doesn’t line up with his explanation for the 2016 photo. Cant say that looks all that much 69. We will just disagree. Gang signs make more sense to me. @ Banquet Bear: That is fucked up. Wouldn’t the OBVIOUS thing to do be search the shooters apt? ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/270 "2018-09-14T02:22:22Z")
I have nothing constructive to add beyond how absolutely furious this makes me. She entered a man’s home with no warrant and no suspicion and shot him dead just for the crime of living in his own home. It’s unbelievable. Do police officers actually understand why people hate them? Or is that just the one mystery that they can’t figure out? They can take their macho, self-righteous, ‘sheepdog’ bullshit and choke on it. Fuck cops. I might have missed it, but I’m waiting for a badge bunny to show up and tell me how Jean was a ‘thug’ who had it coming, and it’s his own fault for holding a phone or not being obedient enough, or any of the other 900 excuses they make so that cops can get away with murder. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/271 "2018-09-14T02:44:24Z")
Why would the police search her home? It’s not where the crime happened. Mr. Jean’s apartment was where it happened. It’s understandable that police would search a crime scene. (Distinguish from Minneapolis PD searching Ms. Justine Damon’s residence, when she was shot in the street.) AIUI Dallas PD did find some weed in Jean’s apartment, less than half an ounce, along with two shell casings and other evidence. Big deal. Still doesn’t excuse her shooting him, even if Jean looked like an extra from Cheech & Chong. I can barely see the glimmer of an attempt by Guyger’s team to assert that she tried to give him an order to stop approaching her, while she was outside, and in uniform, and that Jean’s possible intoxication on weed led him to respond slowly or not perceive her commands. I don’t agree with that, but I can see the argument being made. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/272 "2018-09-14T03:09:43Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Why would the police search her home? It’s not where the crime happened. Mr. Jean’s apartment was where it happened. It’s understandable that police would search a crime scene. (Distinguish from Minneapolis PD searching Ms. Justine Damon’s residence, when she was shot in the street.) > > AIUI Dallas PD did find some weed in Jean’s apartment, less than half an ounce, along with two shell casings and other evidence. Big deal. Still doesn’t excuse her shooting him, even if Jean looked like an extra from Cheech & Chong. > > I can barely see the glimmer of an attempt by Guyger’s team to assert that she tried to give him an order to stop approaching her, while she was outside, and in uniform, and that Jean’s possible intoxication on weed led him to respond slowly or not perceive her commands. I don’t agree with that, but I can see the argument being made. The arrest warrant (Link is up-thread.) says she stated she entered the apartment. She did not shoot him from outside the apartment. The warrant says she stated she went back to check the door to find out what apartment she was in, and that’s when she “discovered” she was in the wrong apartment. And actually, he couldn’t have resembled either Cheech or Chong because the apartment was dark, and she’d just been in a lighted hallway. Her story has more holes than a lace tablecloth. Her attorney had better have a whole lot of thread. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/273 "2018-09-14T03:19:24Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > Cant say that looks all that much 69. We will just disagree. Gang signs make more sense to me. That conveniently and coincidentally look like a 69, the age of the father at the time of the photo? Seems rather like a huge stretch to me, but okay… I will admit, I thought gang sign at first, but the explanation pans out to me and the level of coincidence of age and handsign (and the idea the brother-in-law was quick enough to think–hey–lucky me! turns out my white power handsign looks convincingly enough like a 6 and 9, just like my father-in-law’s age!) is just far too remote. But speculation on this matter is rather an unimportant sidebar. The whole shooting story stinks to high heaven. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/274 "2018-09-14T03:48:44Z")
Uh oh… local Fox affiliate says that according to a search warrant… marijuana was found in the victim’s apartment!! My word! This changes EVERYTHING! ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/275 "2018-09-14T13:06:13Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > @ Banquet Bear: That is fucked up. Wouldn’t the OBVIOUS thing to do be search the shooters apt? Why? Why would the police want to look for marijuana in one of their own’s apartment? It’s not going to help their case against the victim. That thing about the police officer who manhandled and arrested the nurse in Utah was because the police wanted a blood draw on the victim of a fatal accident caused by someone running from the cops in a “bad” chase. The police need to be thorough when looking for dirt on victims of police actions. Not so thorough when it comes to policing the police. Even if that’s not 100% accurate, it sure as hell seems that way. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/276 "2018-09-14T14:10:56Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > Cant say that looks all that much 69. We will just disagree. Gang signs make more sense to me. The “69” is reversed. If you look at it from the perspective of the guy flashing the sign, it looks exactly like a 69. Unless of course you got a hankering for witch burn’n. Then I guess it looks like “gang” sign. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/277 "2018-09-14T14:14:33Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Maybe I’m misunderstanding. I thought that in Bricker’s hypo, it actually was her apartment, not that she only thought it was. If it’s her actual apartment, and Mr. Jean is wandering around it in his undies at 10 PM with all the lights out, then her killing him when he won’t show his hands (or whatever else he did that’d give a reasonable person in her situation the reasonable apprehension of immediate serious bodily harm—a home intruder who won’t show his hands, and is much bigger than you to boot, counts) is justifiable in Texas. > > Instead, he’s in his own apartment, and she is making a Mistake of Fact about which apartment she’s sitting in front of. Mistake of Fact is a term in the Texas Penal Code, and its effects as a defense to criminal prosecution may be found at § 8.02. [https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/penal-sect-8-02.html](https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/penal-sect-8-02.html) Which reads: > > So, for this to help Guyger avoid responsibility for Murder, which is the appropriate charge when you knowingly or intentionally unlawfully kill someone, the mistake must “form a reasonable belief about a matter of fact,” and that the mistake must “negate the culpability required” for the offense. In short, she’s not setting out to go confront Jean, like she would be if the theory holds water that she was going to his apartment to yell at him about his music volume, and then in that encounter got so pissed off at him that she blasted him. That would be Murder. > > Instead, if her story in the affidavit is true, she’s trying to defend herself from an intruder in her place. Which is a mistake. Rather than remove all criminal responsibility from her, I’d argue that her mistake that she was at her own apartment is the result of her negligence, and that this negligence is so overwhelming that it constituted a reckless disregard for the facts. Therefore her killing of Jean was the result of reckless conduct, despite shooting him being a intentional volitional act, and Manslaughter would be the appropriate charge. If you instead think that her negligence was only ordinary, not reckless, then Criminally Negligent Homicide would be the appropriate charge. > > I don’t think she should avoid criminal liability for what she’s done, given the evidence we have so far. I just think that she lacks the mens rea for murder, and that Bricker’s hypo was helpful to establish why. > > Also, nothing says that you have to believe her story that she made a mistake in thinking it was her apartment. If you disbelieve her story, such that there’s no reasonable doubt in your mind that she could think she was in her own place, because it just doesn’t make sense to you, then there’s no mistake of fact. If there’s no mistake of fact, then what we have is a voluntary act in shooting Jean, where you know there’s a very high probability that he’ll die as a result. Which means she knowingly unlawfully caused his death, which means Murder. Excellent issue-spotting. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/278 "2018-09-14T14:25:44Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > Here’s where Bricker’s hypo breaks down - opinion. My wife and I are fans of Investigation Discovery TV. We watch several true crime dramas a day and have for several years. In almost every case, the defense attorney quotes state law, statutes, etc and states unequivocally how their client was complying with the laws and how they were right. In almost every case their client goes to jail. Being a lawyer and quoting state law will not make you right or keep your client from going to jail if they have done something despicable. > > Again, Bricker is just another lawyer. In almost every case that goes to trial there are two opposing ones. One always loses. Your intense study of the subject area is obviously formidable, but I’d gently suggest that cases _that go to trial_ are a subset of _shootings that happen_, and a prosecutor who believes the evidence before him does not support guilt beyond a reasonable doubt never comes to trial in the first place. Again, I’m discussing what the specifics of the law are about a resident shooting in her own apartment, which is not what happened here. Your rebuttal appears to be that defense attorneys sometimes lose cases at at trial. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/279 "2018-09-14T18:21:04Z")
The local Dallas Fox News station (of course) reported that, horrors, \*marijuana \*has been found in Jean’s house. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/280 "2018-09-14T18:23:31Z")
I don’t understand why they are not searching the shooter’s apartment. Don’t committers of crimes have their things searched? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119.md?page=15)