# Dallas cop kills innocent man **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 10, 2018, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119 "2018-09-10T19:32:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2018, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/342 "2018-12-03T03:52:44Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > And now she’s been indicted on murder charges, upgraded from manslaughter. > > [Former Dallas officer Amber Guyger booked on murder charge in Botham Jean slaying, then freed on bond](https://www.dallasnews.com/news/courts/2018/11/30/grand-jury-gets-back-work-deciding-whether-indict-amber-guyger-killing-botham-jean) > [@](#): > > Johnson said that before the Guyger case went to the grand jury, her office did “all kinds of lab testing” and conducted more than 300 interviews with witnesses. 300 witnesses? I have to wonder if that’s a typo or if they suspected premeditation for some reason which is why there’s now a murder charge. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2018, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/343 "2018-12-03T04:14:02Z")
What the article says is more than 300 interviews with witnesses, not that they interviewed more than 300 witnesses. Most likely, they talked to some people multiple times. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2018, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/344 "2018-12-03T13:39:00Z")
Does Texas allow video in the court? Wondering if this trial will be available Live online. I’ve seen trials in Florida and Tennessee online. Haven’t heard what the rules are in Texas. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2018, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/345 "2018-12-03T13:48:42Z")
I will be very surprised if there was no prior relationship between the officer and the deceased, like they had prior dealings in some way. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2018, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/346 "2018-12-03T14:40:04Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > > [@Projammer](#): > > > > 300 witnesses? I have to wonder if that’s a typo or if they suspected premeditation for some reason which is why there’s now a murder charge. > > What the article says is more than 300 interviews with witnesses, not that they interviewed more than 300 witnesses. Most likely, they talked to some people multiple times. I bet a lot of the ‘witnesses’ were perfunctory, meaning they interviewed all of the neighbors on both floors - “Did you know of any interactions between these two?” “No” “Okay, thank you” ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2018, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/347 "2018-12-03T18:55:39Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > What the article says is more than 300 interviews with witnesses, not that they interviewed more than 300 witnesses. Most likely, they talked to some people multiple times. Quite right. That’s what I get for reading while distracted. Thanks for the clarification. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2018, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/348 "2018-12-03T19:02:06Z")
The lawyers take depositions from the witnesses. That can take quite awhile. Lawyers from the prosecution and defense have to schedule time together to conduct them. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2018, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/349 "2018-12-03T20:52:05Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Looking at the charges and ahead at the verdict sentence: in Dallas if a black man went to the apartment went to the apartment of a white female cop and gunned her down only to say, “Ooops my bad I thought it was my apartment.” how many centuries would he get? Yes, I think that anyone claiming this was at all in any way reasonable on her part should have to say with a straight face that a black man who broke into a white cop’s apartment and killed the cop would get treated with the same standard of ‘reasonableness’ they’re advocating for her. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2018, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/350 "2018-12-03T21:13:12Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I do question what happened. But so far they haven’t established any connection between the cop and victim. Maybe that will come out in the trial. > > There were reports of a noise complaint a few days earlier. That’s certainly not a reason to shoot someone. > > I worry that by over charging she may get off. > > A manslaughter charge can easily be proven. Let’s see what testimony links these two people. In Texas law, it’s murder. Manslaughter (again, in Texas) is causing someone’s death through recklessness. Intent is not a necessary element of manslaughter. In this case, she clearly deliberately caused his death with intent, even if she did so under erroneous assumptions. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2018, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/351 "2018-12-03T21:32:08Z")
And I think in all jurisdictions, “intent” does not have to mean extensive prior planning, right? It’s sufficient that you have time to form the will to do it, and choose that course of action over another, you can form intent in a fairly short space of time. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2018, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/352 "2018-12-03T22:06:53Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Looking at the charges and ahead at the verdict sentence: in Dallas if a black man went to the apartment went to the apartment of a white female cop and gunned her down only to say, “Ooops my bad I thought it was my apartment.” how many centuries would he get? Oh, that’s an exaggeration. He probably wouldn’t get more than [10.87 years](https://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/death_row/dr_facts.html). ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2018, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/353 "2018-12-03T22:23:07Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > And I think in all jurisdictions, “intent” does not have to mean extensive prior planning, right? It’s sufficient that you have time to form the will to do it, and choose that course of action over another, you can form intent in a fairly short space of time. I can’t speak to all jurisdictions, but the Texas penal code does not list premeditation as a factor in determining which murder charge applies. Evidence of premeditation, however, would weigh against any “crime of passion” defense (e.g., “But I wuz _skeered_!”) that Guyger’s lawyers might try to pitch at the sentencing stage. If they successfully represent the shooting as a result of sudden panic, it could reduce the charge from a first-degree felony (with a prison term of 5-99 years or life) to a second-degree felony (with a prison term of 2-20 years). ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/354 "2019-09-25T00:07:49Z")
The trial has started. Couple things have come out. No drugs or alcohol in Guyger’s toxicology. She was sexting her police partner just prior to the shooting. > **["I need you. Hurry": Texts between Amber Guyger, partner revealed at trial](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/texts-between-amber-guyger-dallas-police-partner-revealed-murder-trial-n1058051)** > > The testimony of Guyger's former Dallas police partner, Martin Rivera, capped the end of the first day of her murder trial. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/355 "2019-09-25T00:16:56Z")
There was also a phone call prior to the shooting. I don’t see Guyger & Rivera’s personal relationship as relevant to the case, but it did get allowed in court. Rivera testified about the texts and call. > [@](#): > > After Guyger got off from work, she and Rivera had a 16-minute phone conversation that ended as she arrived at her apartment complex’s parking garage. The police department is about two blocks from the complex. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/356 "2019-09-25T11:02:08Z")
A variety of Dallas media outlets are live streaming the trial. I mentioned one in this Pit [post](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21878777&postcount=15176), forgetting there was a thread here about the case. That Guyger was texting/Snapchatting Rivera throughout the aftermath of the encounter with Mr. Jean, in lieu of rendering aid to Mr. Jean, if I understand the timeline of events correctly, and the texts/chat being deleted by both Guyger and Rivera, doesn’t look good for Guyger. It may merely have been sexting; it may have been an aborted discussion of what story she needed to tell to the authorities. I mentioned that I am concerned the Dallas County Grand Jury may have over indicted her, without also mentioning potential lesser culpable mental states, such as recklessness or negligence. AIUI, without including those mental states in the indictment, the State may not charge the jury to determine what would normally be lesser included offenses such as manslaughter or criminally negligent homicide. The jury finds her guilty or not guilty on murder only, and that’s it. I’m not sure the State can prove murder here, with Guyger’s story, as repugnant as her actions were. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/357 "2019-09-25T14:13:39Z")
Should be a short trial. There’s not much at dispute. Guyger made several errors that resulted in the shooting. They pointed out yesterday that she should have stayed in the hallway and called for backup. There was no need to enter because there’s only one way out. She could have easily covered the door and waited. Guyger eventually would have noticed the red doormat. . I am curious why that latch didn’t work properly. Guyger shouldn’t have ever gotten inside. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/358 "2019-09-25T20:28:33Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > . > I am curious why that latch didn’t work properly. Guyger shouldn’t have ever gotten inside. Is there any evidence Jean heard her at the door and opened it to see who it was? To which her reaction was “OMG being attacked by a black guy!”? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/359 "2019-09-25T21:23:57Z")
The testimony yesterday said he was on the sofa eating ice cream. They haven’t established what Jean did after hearing Guyger at his door. I expect they’ll have testimony to answer that question. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/360 "2019-09-26T01:58:27Z")
The first link has testimony from several witnesses on Sept 25. The main investigator’s testimony cleared up several questions that I had. Guyger’s story seems to hold up. She drove directly from work to the apartments. Armstrong confirmed the signage was confusing and many residents had found themselves trying their key at the wrong door. Botham’s lock was defective and allowed Guyger to enter the wrong apartment. I still think the shooting was completely unwarranted and IMHO probably criminal. Especially for a cop with training and 5 years experience. She was on the high crimes task force and certainly should have used better judgement. Sept 25 > **[Lead Investigator, Medical Examiner Testify on Day 3 of Amber Guyger Murder...](https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/watch-live-amber-guyger-murder-trial-day-3/242151/)** > > Day 3 of the Amber Guyger murder trial began with the defense’s cross-examination of prosecution witness Texas Ranger David Armstrong, who led the investigation into Botham Jean’s death. > [@](#): > > Judge Tammy Kemp blocked Texas Ranger David Armstrong from testifying before the jury Wednesday on the “reasonableness” of Amber Guyger shooting Botham Jean, saying he doesn’t believe she committed a crime and that she perceived him a deadly threat. > > (Published 4 hours ago) > According to Armstrong, the door’s latch was not correctly installed and when the weather was humid, as it was the night of the shooting, the door would not always fully close. Sept 24 testimony > **[Video showing lifesaving efforts shocks Botham Jean’s family at Amber...](https://www.dallasnews.com/news/courts/2019/09/25/video-showing-lifesaving-efforts-shocks-botham-jean-s-family-at-amber-guyger-s-murder-trial/)** > > Testimony resumed Wednesday in the murder trial of Amber Guyger, the former Dallas police officer who shot Botham Jean in his apartment last... > [@](#): > > Before the jury had been sent out of the room, Armstrong testified about how it was common for residents of the South Side Flats apartments, where both Guyger and Jean lived, to get confused and go to the wrong apartment. > > Armstrong said that even he had trouble determining which floor he was on while investigating the shooting last year. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/361 "2019-09-26T02:17:49Z")
I watched the DA’s Data Analyst testimony. She put together a detailed timeline of Botham and Guyger’s movements that day. There was no interaction between the two prior to Guyger entering the apartment. The shooting took place within 3 to 4 mins after she parked. The 911 call came immediately afterwards. Guyger did text Martin Rivera (her partner) to come help her after the shooting. The DA’s Data Analyst testimony didn’t indicate that he responded. That probably saved his career. Blundering into this crime scene would have been a serious error. It would have also raised the question of a police cover up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119.md?page=19)