# Dallas cop kills innocent man **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 10, 2018, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119 "2018-09-10T19:32:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/362 "2019-09-26T23:18:21Z")
Defense starts their case Friday. Court will continue into Saturday. The jury is sequestered and the judge wants to keep the case moving along. Guyger is expected to testify in her defense. I’ve been very impressed with the photo and video footage provide by the Texas Rangers. The 3rd & 4th floors of that apartment complex look identical. Guyger’s tragic mistake is more understandable. Toxicology shows she was not under the influence of drugs or alcohol. I’m beginning to see her actions in a much different light. People that haven’t followed the trial may be very upset with the eventual verdict. I was initially very skeptical of the “I got off on the wrong floor” defense. I assumed she was hammered and stupidly blundered into Jean’s apartment. But it’s pretty compelling when the state’s own investigation shows just how this case unfolded. There have been cases where police executed warrants at the wrong address. Mistakes like this happen more often than we realize. Guyger wasn’t being reckless. I wish she had paused and waited for backup. That’s the only reason I still think she may get convicted on a lesser charge. > **[State Rests on Day 4, Defense Motion for a Direct Verdict of Not Guilty Denied](https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/watch-live-amber-guyger-murder-trial-day-4/273549/)** > > Dallas County prosecutors rested their case against Amber Guyger on Thursday, satisfied they’d proved she murdered 26-year-old Botham Jean on the trial’s fourth day. Before calling a witness in her defense, Guyger’s team filed a motion requesting a... > [@](#): > > Dallas County prosecutors rested their case against Amber Guyger on Thursday, satisfied they’d proved she murdered 26-year-old Botham Jean on the trial’s fourth day. Before calling a witness in her defense, Guyger’s team filed a motion requesting a direct verdict of not guilty, claiming the state failed to prove she knowingly and intentionally caused Jean’s death – the motion was denied by Judge Tammy Kemp and court was recessed until Friday morning. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/363 "2019-09-27T00:08:24Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > A variety of Dallas media outlets are live streaming the trial. I mentioned one in this Pit [post](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21878777&postcount=15176), forgetting there was a thread here about the case. > > That Guyger was texting/Snapchatting Rivera throughout the aftermath of the encounter with Mr. Jean, in lieu of rendering aid to Mr. Jean, if I understand the timeline of events correctly, and the texts/chat being deleted by both Guyger and Rivera, doesn’t look good for Guyger. It may merely have been sexting; it may have been an aborted discussion of what story she needed to tell to the authorities. > > I mentioned that I am concerned the Dallas County Grand Jury may have over indicted her, without also mentioning potential lesser culpable mental states, such as recklessness or negligence. AIUI, without including those mental states in the indictment, the State may not charge the jury to determine what would normally be lesser included offenses such as manslaughter or criminally negligent homicide. The jury finds her guilty or not guilty on murder only, and that’s it. I’m not sure the State can prove murder here, with Guyger’s story, as repugnant as her actions were. I’m concerned too that Guyger was over charged. I’m not sure the jury will have an option they can support. She is guilty of a lesser charge IMHO. But the DA may have bungled this case. I just don’t know what the jury can do. We won’t know until the judge’s instructions to the jury as they go to decide the case. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/364 "2019-09-27T00:24:29Z")
The guy who got shot by a cop was black, no one should be surprised when she walks. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/365 "2019-09-27T00:53:53Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > …Guyger’s tragic mistake is more understandable. Toxicology shows she was not under the influence of drugs or alcohol. I’m beginning to see her actions in a much different light. > > People that haven’t followed the trial may be very upset with the eventual verdict. I was initially very skeptical of the “I got off on the wrong floor” defense. I assumed she was hammered and stupidly blundered into Jean’s apartment. But it’s pretty compelling when the state’s own investigation shows just how this case unfolded. There have been cases where police executed warrants at the wrong address. Mistakes like this happen more often than we realize. > > Guyger wasn’t being reckless. I wish she had paused and waited for backup. That’s the only reason I still think she may get convicted on a lesser charge. > [State Rests on Day 4, Defense Motion for a Direct Verdict of Not Guilty Denied – NBC 5 Dallas-Fort Worth](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Watch-Live-Amber-Guyger-Murder-Trial-Day-4-561148621.html%3famp=y) I am upset at the verdict I think the jury will render. It is abominable that a man, minding his own business in his own home, is killed by some trigger-happy police officer, and we’re supposed to accept, “Oops, my bad,” as an acceptable response? She was overworked, having come off an over 12 hour shift that day, and AIUI, served on a warrant service team. She was trained, even more so than the present norm for American law enforcement, to react aggressively to threats with overwhelming violence of action. Because that’s how you bring in people who don’t want to get arrested, and often strenuously and violently resist. Especially if you are small, as she appears to be, and female. I’m not surprised she used her firearm in the line of duty before this, and I’m not terribly surprised she did it that night. Though she intended to shoot Mr. Jean, and used deadly force against him, I think her earnest mistake of fact negates the mens rea required for murder. But I think, she sure as hell was reckless in her disregard for determining whether she was in her apartment or whether Mr. Jean was a threat. The bullet that killed Mr. Jean went on a downward trajectory through his chest, and out his leg. I think she shot him as he was bent over, trying to get up off his couch. You want to say she was negligent instead of reckless? Fine. But she cannot be excused for this. And she will. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/366 "2019-09-27T01:08:36Z")
It is a horrible tragedy. Had she only paused for a few minutes waiting for backup this would have never happened. I’m sure Guyger would have looked around and noticed the differences in the hallway. Doormats were different, one neighbor had a large vase with flowers beside her door. The backup officers would have probably caught the address error too. Long before anyone confronted Botham Jean. I agree that Guyger’s assignment in high crimes made her more aggressive. She was alone and confronting a possibly armed suspect. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/367 "2019-09-27T01:16:51Z")
She’s, at best, an incompetent menace who can no longer be trusted to be a police officer. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/368 "2019-09-27T01:27:37Z")
Yup. Guyger should never be trusted in law enforcement again. Regardless of the outcome of this trial. She’s finished in law enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/369 "2019-09-27T13:49:47Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I’m concerned too that Guyger was over charged. I’m not sure the jury will have an option they can support. > > She is guilty of a lesser charge IMHO. But the DA may have bungled this case. I just don’t know what the jury can do. > > We won’t know until the judge’s instructions to the jury as they go to decide the case. She was originally charged with a lesser crime, but after pressure from the community, the DA upgraded the charge to murder. And I suspect you’re right- they might have got manslaughter or negligent homicide to stick, but murder may be a charge too far. Personally, what I’m not liking is the constant noise from the Dallas black community about “justice” in this case, when in reality justice isn’t what they want, but vengeance. Anything shy of a murder conviction is going to be a huge shitstorm, even if justice is truly served with an acquittal. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/370 "2019-09-27T14:55:21Z")
I’ve been watching the live feed this morning. Guyger is the first witnesses. She testified about her background and working her way through college. Criminology major. They described her day at work and coming home. She lost composure and the judge took a 10 min break. Pretty compelling and IMHO a real breakdown. Similar to her actions seen on the officer’s bodycam video after the shooting. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/371 "2019-09-27T15:06:11Z")
Guyger was carrying a 30 lb vest, backpack, and lunch bag on her left arm as she walked to her apartment. Right arm free to unlock the door. She was pretty loaded down for a 5’3" lady. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/372 "2019-09-27T15:15:53Z")
Did she say in her testimony if she tried to talk to the victim, if only to ask, “What are you doing in my apartment?” ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/373 "2019-09-27T15:46:36Z")
She gave instructions, show me your hands several times. He responded hey,hey, hey and approached her. Then she shot. She says it happened very quick. She was propping open the heavy door with her left hand & the vest. Right hand held her gun. She certainly seems very remorseful. Hard to know how the jury is reacting. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/374 "2019-09-27T17:20:09Z")
There hasn’t been any new information. Guyger told her version of what happened. What she said about Jean’s movements makes sense. He was standing when the door opened and walked towards her. That’s what I would have done. The noise at the door would have made me stand up. Naturally I’d approach the officer to see why they entered my apartment. I haven’t heard any testimony about the volume of the tv. I wonder if that interfered with Jean’s attempt to speak to Guyger? She shot so quickly that he didn’t have time to say much. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/375 "2019-09-27T18:29:15Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > She gave instructions, show me your hands several times. > > He responded hey,hey, hey and approached her. Then she shot. She says it happened very quick. [Botham Jean was lying down or bent over when he was shot.](https://www.kiro7.com/news/deep-viral/amber-guyger-trial-botham-jean-was-bent-over-or-lying-on-back-when-shot-medical-examiner-testifies/991058817?utm_source=homestream&utm_medium=site_navigation&utm_campaign=homestream_click) ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/376 "2019-09-27T19:22:18Z")
So, hypothetically: Suppose Botham thought that Guyger was an armed intruder and then pulled out a gun of \*his \*own. Would this be a weird case where \*both \*parties would be invoking Stand Your Ground legislation? (assuming they somehow both lived to tell the tale) ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/377 "2019-09-27T19:32:18Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > So, hypothetically: Suppose Botham thought that Guyger was an armed intruder and then pulled out a gun of \*his \*own. Would this be a weird case where \*both \*parties would be invoking Stand Your Ground legislation? (assuming they somehow both lived to tell the tale) Again, IANAL, but it’s not a Stand Your Ground case. For either party. For Guyger, she was acting in her role as a law enforcement officer when she saw what she initially perceived as an intruder in her apartment, moving towards her. For Jean, in your hypo, he’s sitting in his own home, repelling an unlawful intruder. Castle Doctrine, which removed the common law ‘duty to retreat’ if possible before using deadly force, might apply. It’s not called as such in Texas, but instead may be found in [Texas Penal Code sections 9.31 and 9.32](https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/PE/htm/PE.9.htm), as a justification for the use of force against another. 9.32 concerns justification for using deadly force, and requires that the conditions in 9.31, justification for using force generally, also be true. Aside, from reading ostensible LEOs’ impressions of Guyger’s testimony today; their impression is that she’s an idiot, poor officer, and is digging enough of a hole with her testimony that she might yet be found guilty of murder. I don’t know; I haven’t watched her testify. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/378 "2019-09-27T19:32:48Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > [Botham Jean was lying down or bent over when he was shot.](https://www.kiro7.com/news/deep-viral/amber-guyger-trial-botham-jean-was-bent-over-or-lying-on-back-when-shot-medical-examiner-testifies/991058817?utm_source=homestream&utm_medium=site_navigation&utm_campaign=homestream_click) That changes things a bit…unless she changes her story to say that he was crawling towards her in a threatening manner. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/379 "2019-09-27T19:39:52Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Castle Doctrine, which removed the common law ‘duty to retreat’ if possible before using deadly force, might apply. It’s not called as such in Texas, but instead may be found in [Texas Penal Code sections 9.31 and 9.32](https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/PE/htm/PE.9.htm), as a justification for the use of force against another. 9.32 concerns justification for using deadly force, and requires that the conditions in 9.31, justification for using force generally, also be true. Good thing you included the word “generally” there: [Joe Horn shooting controversy - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Horn_shooting_controversy) ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/380 "2019-09-27T19:45:02Z")
> [@bump](#): > > …And I suspect you’re right- they might have got manslaughter or negligent homicide to stick, but murder may be a charge too far. > > Personally, what I’m not liking is the constant noise from the Dallas black community about “justice” in this case, when in reality justice isn’t what they want, but vengeance. … Really well put. Gee - too bad that she seems remorseful. She majorly fucked up, such that this poor guy is dead. In my opinion, the MOST important thing would have been to get an unqualified acknowledgment that she acted improperly, that such actions are unacceptable OBO LEOs, and that she received a significant punishment. Whether she goes to jail for 3 years or 20, the poor guy is going to remain dead. And IMO just about any jail time, a significant civil payout, and meaningful reforms, sure trump the possibility of acquittal. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/381 "2019-09-27T19:47:44Z")
The downward trajectory of the bullet in Jean’s body is a major problem for the defense. The DA pressed Guyger on this in redirect. Guyger Insisted Jean was walking towards her. She’s 5’3" and he was over 6’. She should be shooting upwards. That’s a major inconsistency in her story. The jury won’t like that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119.md?page=20)