# Dallas cop kills innocent man **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 10, 2018, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119 "2018-09-10T19:32:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2019, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/402 "2019-09-30T16:44:01Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > They’ve been going over the state’s objections to several jury instructions. In particular the Castle Doctrine. Judge ruled it stays in. Does anyone know what’s the significance of that ruling? > > The judge ruled against all the state’s jury instruction objections. It seemed to me the state was trying to limit what the jury could consider. > > Closing arguments should begin soon, each side gets one hour. Again, not a lawyer, but AIUI, allowing the ‘Castle Doctrine’ to be mentioned in the charge to the jury means inserting the following language from justification in the [Texas Penal Code at section 9.32(b)(1)(A)](https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/SOTWDocs/PE/htm/PE.9.htm) > [@](#): > > : The actor’s belief under Subsection (a)(2) that the deadly force was immediately necessary as described by that subdivision is presumed to be reasonable if the actor: > > (1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the deadly force was used: > > (A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor’s occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; It’s a presumption that, if the bad guy is unlawfully in your habitation, and used force to get there, using immediate deadly force against that bad guy is presumed to be reasonable. It’s a big win for Guyger, as it means she doesn’t need to show that Jean was a immediate threat to commit a serious bodily injury against Guyger. It can be presumed he was, if she reasonably believed that Jean unlawfully broke into her apartment. Regardless of whether he was actually in her apartment or not; she just has to reasonably believe that he had. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2019, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/403 "2019-09-30T16:52:34Z")
From the sites I’m seeing, the judge’s instructions to the jury allow them to consider a manslaughter charge. My guess is that’s where they end up, given that the defense argued the Castle Doctrine, even though this wasn’t her own home. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2019, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/404 "2019-09-30T16:56:06Z")
That’s really surprising. I had thought it settled case law in Texas that the state could not charge the jury to determine offenses whose elements had not been stated in the indictment. Not the first time a judge bollixed up procedure in her rulings though. ---
**Author:** ![Folly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folly/32/3219_2.png) [@Folly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folly)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2019, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/405 "2019-09-30T17:17:49Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > That’s really surprising. I had thought it settled case law in Texas that the state could not charge the jury to determine offenses whose elements had not been stated in the indictment. Not the first time a judge bollixed up procedure in her rulings though. I don’t know TX law offhand, but a lesser included offense would be some subset of elements stated in the indictment. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2019, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/406 "2019-09-30T17:31:52Z")
I have no idea how the jury will decide this case. I listened to both closing arguments. Both arguments make sense and are opposite of each other. I wouldn’t want to be on that jury. It’s going to be a difficult decision. I think the family has a strong civil case against the apartment complex. The poor signage and defective locks contributed to this tragedy. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2019, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/407 "2019-09-30T17:33:10Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > It’s a presumption that, if the bad guy is unlawfully in your habitation, and used force to get there, using immediate deadly force against that bad guy is presumed to be reasonable. It’s a big win for Guyger, as it means she doesn’t need to show that Jean was a immediate threat to commit a serious bodily injury against Guyger. It can be presumed he was, if she reasonably believed that Jean unlawfully broke into her apartment. Regardless of whether he was actually in her apartment or not; she just has to reasonably believe that he had. It’s a big jump from seeing someone already in your apartment as you enter, and assuming that he “unlawfully broke in”. Maybe he came in through an open door to the wrong apartment? It could happen! ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2019, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/408 "2019-09-30T17:39:49Z")
> [@Folly](#): > > I don’t know TX law offhand, but a lesser included offense would be some subset of elements stated in the indictment. Agreed, and before this, I had thought lesser culpable mental states, like negligently or recklessly, were included within an indictment for murder, that stated the accused knowingly or intentionally unlawfully caused the death of another. Then I saw some case law that, for example, overturned convictions for manslaughter because the indictment did not specifically indicate ‘sudden passion’ or other required elements of manslaughter in Texas. Other cases did the same for a negligent homicide conviction. So I dunno. Judge allowed it, guess it’s going to be before the jury. I guess Neg. Homicide didn’t make the cut though. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2019, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/409 "2019-09-30T17:43:44Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > It’s a big jump from seeing someone already in your apartment as you enter, and assuming that he “unlawfully broke in”. Maybe he came in through an open door to the wrong apartment? It could happen! Imagine that he’s a visitor from overseas who thought he was in his friend’s apartment but it was actually hers. Would the castle doctrine have allowed her to kill him without even attempting to talk to him to find out why he was there? I think the shoot first, ask questions later mentality bothers me the most. (See also the murder of [Yoshihiro Hattori](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Yoshihiro_Hattori), from 1992, although the circumstances are different.) ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2019, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/410 "2019-09-30T17:44:42Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I think the family has a strong civil case against the apartment complex. The poor signage and defective locks contributed to this tragedy. The police dept too, if she was that exhausted after working OT. Have they made any changes to their policies & procedures regarding OT? ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2019, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/411 "2019-09-30T17:56:40Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I think the family has a strong civil case against the apartment complex. The poor signage and defective locks contributed to this tragedy. Just how bad is the signage? If there’s a unique identifier on each apt door (i.e. “unit #327”), then ISTM nothing else matters. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2019, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/412 "2019-09-30T17:59:21Z")
As I said upthread, identical floors are very common in apartment buildings (as well as hotels, dorms and other such buildings). Most of us manage not to kill strangers. I don’t see how the apartment building is liable. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2019, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/413 "2019-09-30T18:05:56Z")
Actually, the apartment building might be liable if the door lock was faulty and that permitted her to enter an apartment not her own. But not simply because the floors looked the same. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/414 "2019-10-01T02:01:50Z")
This article is a few days old. It’s the best that I found on lesser charges for Amber Guyger. Imho Criminally negligent homicide was the most appropriate charge. But that’s off the table. I’m not entirely convinced manslaughter has been proven in this case. We’ll find out in the next day or two. This article was posted before the judge ruled on charges for Guyger. [https://www.wfaa.com/mobile/article/news/special-reports/botham-jean/could-amber-guyger-be-convicted-of-a-charge-other-than-murder/287-1fd0a582-addb-4cd7-b1b7-31a63c332bdd](https://www.wfaa.com/mobile/article/news/special-reports/botham-jean/could-amber-guyger-be-convicted-of-a-charge-other-than-murder/287-1fd0a582-addb-4cd7-b1b7-31a63c332bdd) > [@](#): > > During jury selection, prospective jurors were told about manslaughter. Prosecutor Jason Fine said that they have to offer a lesser charge if there is a “scintilla” of evidence to support that charge. > > It won’t be clear whether prosecutors will ask to include a lesser charge in the jury instructions until all evidence and testimony has been presented. It will be up to the judge to decide whether the evidence supports including a lesser criminal charge for the jury to consider during deliberations. ---
**Author:** ![LAZombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b38774/32.png) [@LAZombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LAZombie)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/415 "2019-10-01T02:58:57Z")
> [@Chingon](#): > > The guy who got shot by a cop was black, no one should be surprised when she walks. If the cop walks, it is because of her gender not the race of the victim. If the posts here on SDMB are indicative of the jury’s mindset, there is a distinctive desire to ameliorate Ms. Guyger’s actions. Males are generally considered disposable, and there is an instinctive desire to protect females especially younger attractive ones. The political optics are also playing a role. No one wants to be too harsh on Ms. Guyger because it will be considered misogyny. and that somehow critcizing her behavior undermines all women especially ones that work in law enforcement. All women are to be considered victims; thus, we must blame the apartment complex, the faulty locks, and the police department for working her too hard but not so hard that she still had energy to sext. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/416 "2019-10-01T03:42:04Z")
> [@LAZombie](#): > > If the cop walks, it is because of her gender not the race of the victim. If the posts here on SDMB are indicative of the jury’s mindset, there is a distinctive desire to ameliorate Ms. Guyger’s actions. Males are generally considered disposable, and there is an instinctive desire to protect females especially younger attractive ones. > > The political optics are also playing a role. No one wants to be too harsh on Ms. Guyger because it will be considered misogyny. and that somehow critcizing her behavior undermines all women especially ones that work in law enforcement. All women are to be considered victims; thus, we must blame the apartment complex, the faulty locks, and the police department for working her too hard but not so hard that she still had energy to sext. I reject your hypothesis. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/417 "2019-10-01T03:52:53Z")
On a Facebook page I follow someone posted a long explanation from someone who used to be a cop in Texas, got his law degree and has been a prosecutor and defense attorney. He makes a pretty good case citing Texas specific statues as to why he thinks she will be found not guilty. I wish I could post the whole thing here but I can’t find where it was published originally and I don’t want to quote it without attribution. I still think she will be found guilty of manslaughter but after reading that I will understand why she isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Harrington](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac8455/32.png) [@Harrington](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harrington)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/418 "2019-10-01T13:20:55Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > I reject your **hypothesis**. You misspelled “Utter nonsensical rambling tripe.” \*emphasis added ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/419 "2019-10-01T13:31:16Z")
Of course she’ll be found not guilty; she’s a white woman who shot a black man. There was never any doubt the trial’s a sham. The judge has told the jury to acquit her by ordering them to “consider” Castle Doctrine, which is, in effect, telling them to believe Guyger’s absurdities. ---
**Author:** ![Harrington](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac8455/32.png) [@Harrington](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harrington)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/420 "2019-10-01T13:41:40Z")
I think murder is a tough reach. Thankfully, there are LIOs. ---
**Author:** ![LAZombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b38774/32.png) [@LAZombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LAZombie)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/421 "2019-10-01T15:26:07Z")
Question: There were previous reports from witnesses claiming they heard knocking and a woman’s voice yelling “Let me in!” That is in direct contradiction to Guyger’s account. Did those witnesses testify? [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/tKKfuVkmHVw/maxresdefault.jpg ""Let me in": Witnesses dispute cop account of Botham Jean shooting, attorney says") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKKfuVkmHVw) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119.md?page=22)