# Dallas cop kills innocent man **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 10, 2018, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119 "2018-09-10T19:32:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/422 "2019-10-01T15:28:53Z")
Several neighbors testified and said they heard nothing until the shots. Guyger claims she ordered Jean to “show me your hands”. Police are known for their clear command voice. The neighbors should have heard that. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/423 "2019-10-01T15:46:49Z")
> [@Harrington](#): > > I think murder is a tough reach. Thankfully, there are LIOs. Murder is the only logical and fair verdict. In Texas, “murder” and “manslaughter” differ in terms of the intent to kill; those terms are defined differently than in some other places. “Murder” is what many other jurisdictions refer to as “second degree murder,” the deliberate, unlawful taking of a person’s life. What other jurisdictions might call “first degree murder” is in Texas called “Capital murder.” “Manslaughter” in Texas specifically means the accidental taking of a life through egregiously reckless behaviour. Manslaughter is by definition not intentional; the reckless behaviour is intentional but killing someone was not. Based on the plain facts, it would make no sense to convict Guyger of manslaughter, because she did not accidentally kill Botham Jean; she killed him deliberately. Her claim that she magically thought she was on a different floor, in a different apartment, and though he was someone he was not, even if you believe all that, doesn’t matter; she meant to shoot him and did so. There is, on the other hand, a lack of evidence that she is guilty of capital murder as Texas defines it; that would require an additional aggravating circumstance, none of which appear to be the case here. ---
**Author:** ![Yodalicious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yodalicious/32/8195_2.png) [@Yodalicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yodalicious)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/424 "2019-10-01T15:57:43Z")
[Murder it is.](https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/amber-guyger-botham-jean-verdict/index.html?adkey=bn) ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/425 "2019-10-01T15:58:12Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Of course she’ll be found not guilty; she’s a white woman who shot a black man. Then how do you explain other instances in which a white woman has been convinced of murdering (with a gun even!) a black man? ETA: Or the verdict in this very trial, even! ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/426 "2019-10-01T15:59:29Z")
Well, I have egg on my face, thanks to my incessant pessimism. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/427 "2019-10-01T16:00:24Z")
And after less than 24 hours of deliberation. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/428 "2019-10-01T16:05:40Z")
Wow, I didn’t expect a guilty verdict. I guess she’s been taken into custody? > **[Amber Guyger found guilty of murder at trial in fatal shooting of neighbor...](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/amber-guyger-found-guilty-murder-trial-fatal-shooting-neighbor-botham-n1060506)** > > Guyger was off-duty but in uniform when she shot Jean last year in a case that has become a flashpoint in Dallas over issues of police use of force and racial bias. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/429 "2019-10-01T16:29:41Z")
Wow - I did not expect that either. Anyone know the sentencing guidelines? Apparently the max is life, but what is the min? What do you guys think is appropriate? Using Chicago’s recent experience as a guide, I’ll put the over/under at 7 years. My personal opinion is that anything more than a de minimis sentence is OK. Say, more than 3 yrs. 7-10 woul dbe about right… ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/430 "2019-10-01T16:32:08Z")
I’d hope it’s less than 8 years. 7 sounds about right. She’d serve maybe 5 and get parole? There were a lot of extenuating circumstances. She shouldn’t serve 20 years for a mistake. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/431 "2019-10-01T16:33:16Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Wow - I did not expect that either. Anyone know the sentencing guidelines? Apparently the max is life, but what is the min? What do you guys think is appropriate? > > Using Chicago’s recent experience as a guide, I’ll put the over/under at 7 years. My personal opinion is that anything more than a de minimis sentence is OK. Say, more than 3 yrs. 7-10 woul dbe about right… From reddit so I can’t vouch for accuracy: > [@](#): > > 1st degree felony murder carries a 5 year minimum. She can argue “sudden passion from adequate cause” during the punishment phase of the trial and possibly reduce that to a 2nd degree felony murder, which carries a 2 year minimum. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/432 "2019-10-01T16:44:43Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I’d hope it’s less than 8 years. 7 sounds about right. She’d serve maybe 5 and get parole? > > There were a lot of extenuating circumstances. She shouldn’t serve 20 years for a mistake. Agree. The good news is that this will - or at least _should_ - send a strong message to LEOs and their instructors that they are personally liable for things like this. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/433 "2019-10-01T16:47:40Z")
No telling what this jury will do. They may put her away for life. > **[Amber Guyger convicted of murder for killing Botham Jean; sentencing phase to...](https://www.dallasnews.com/news/courts/2019/10/01/jurors-begin-second-day-deliberations-amber-guygers-murder-trial/)** > > Jurors returned to the Frank Crowley Courts Building in Dallas on Tuesday morning to resume deliberating in the murder trial for fired Officer... > [@](#): > > Jurors will now resume deliberating to decide Guyger’s punishment. In Texas, murder carries a punishment of five to 99 years or life in prison. The charge is not eligible for probation. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/434 "2019-10-01T17:02:00Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > The good news is that this will - or at least _should_ - send a strong message to LEOs and their instructors that they are personally liable for things like this. While I was never a civilian law enforcement officer or an MP, I was responsible for training MP’s deploying to conduct law and order duties at large base camps. The Guard and Reserve experience meant I knew way more than a normal number of law enforcement and heard about their experiences in training. Some of those were old stories and some were troops going through the academy in the period we were talking. I am completely mystified about what message this would send. I don’t see how it would have any impact on their training or departmental policy about use of force. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Springtime_for_Spacers)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/435 "2019-10-01T17:10:50Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I’d hope it’s less than 8 years. 7 sounds about right. She’d serve maybe 5 and get parole? > > There were a lot of extenuating circumstances. She shouldn’t serve 20 years for a mistake. Oh for fuck’s sake. Extenuating circumstances my arse. I hope the judge has a clearer idea of her guilt than you. I reserve my sympathies for Botham Jean’s family. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/436 "2019-10-01T17:14:59Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I’d hope it’s less than 8 years. 7 sounds about right. She’d serve maybe 5 and get parole? > > There were a lot of extenuating circumstances. She shouldn’t serve 20 years for a mistake. “A mistake”? A mistake is forgetting the blanket in the oven when you turn it on. A trained police officer shooting an unarmed man in his own home is not “a mistake”. It’s criminal. And I agree with the jury verdict. 15-20 years sounds about right to me, and anything less than 8 is an insult to the murdered man. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/437 "2019-10-01T17:21:45Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > “A mistake”? A mistake is forgetting the blanket in the oven when you turn it on. A trained police officer shooting an unarmed man in his own home is not “a mistake”. It’s criminal. And I agree with the jury verdict. 15-20 years sounds about right to me, and anything less than 8 is an insult to the murdered man. I haven’t been following this case. Is there an alleged motive other than gross incompetence? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/438 "2019-10-01T17:25:40Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > While I was never a civilian law enforcement officer or an MP, I was responsible for training MP’s deploying to conduct law and order duties at large base camps. The Guard and Reserve experience meant I knew way more than a normal number of law enforcement and heard about their experiences in training. Some of those were old stories and some were troops going through the academy in the period we were talking. > > I am completely mystified about what message this would send. I don’t see how it would have any impact on their training or departmental policy about use of force. 😕 How about not shooting first and asking questions later? What’s wrong with talking to people before pulling out and using firearms? This was a police officer in an American city, not a member of the military in a war zone. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/439 "2019-10-01T17:40:46Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > “A mistake”? A mistake is forgetting the blanket in the oven when you turn it on. A trained police officer shooting an unarmed man in his own home is not “a mistake”. It’s criminal. And I agree with the jury verdict. 15-20 years sounds about right to me, and anything less than 8 is an insult to the murdered man. “forgetting the blanket in the oven” ? ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/440 "2019-10-01T17:48:11Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Well, I have egg on my face, thanks to my incessant pessimism. And racism, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![LAZombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b38774/32.png) [@LAZombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LAZombie)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119/441 "2019-10-01T18:34:10Z")
Ms. Guyger’s own testimony doomed her. She pathetically tried to portray herself as the victim. She described Mr. Jean as “approaching her aggressively” and continually referred to Mr. Jean’s apartment as “her apartment.” She cried on the witness stand, “I was so scared!” multiple times but came off as disingenuous. The fact that she texted her boyfriend, " I fucked up" immediately after shooting Jean instead of rending aid also did not help. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dallas-cop-kills-innocent-man/821119.md?page=23)