# Dalmatians as fire dogs **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [February 19, 2001, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dalmatians-as-fire-dogs/55064 "2001-02-19T08:37:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Rebecca\_Henson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9de053/32.png) [@Rebecca\_Henson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rebecca_Henson)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2001, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dalmatians-as-fire-dogs/55064/1 "2001-02-19T08:37:44Z")
One of the reasons dalmatians are fire dogs is that 10% of them are deaf due to the crushing inbreeding needed to get white dogs with black spots. They weren’t as distracted by the noise of the death screams, sirens, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2001, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dalmatians-as-fire-dogs/55064/2 "2001-02-19T08:54:31Z")
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**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2001, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dalmatians-as-fire-dogs/55064/3 "2001-02-19T14:43:51Z")
Um–death screams? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2001, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dalmatians-as-fire-dogs/55064/4 "2001-02-19T15:40:58Z")
**Rebecca Henson** , while I wouldn’t be surprised to learn Dalmatians are inbred (many purebreeds, especially from show-winning pedigrees, are), or even that said inbreeding leads to 10% of them being deaf, I find it extremely dubious that > [@](#): > > …are deaf due to the crushing inbreeding needed to get white dogs with black spots. White with black spots isn’t such an unusual pattern; you see it in nature all the time. I doubt excessive inbreeding would have been necessary to produce it in dogs. And anyway, the Dalmatian is acknowledged to be an “ancient breed.” Even if it had been produced originally through unwise inbreeding, there’ve been centuries, if not millenia, since then to diversify and stabilize its gene pool. If 10% of today’s Dalmatians are deaf, and it’s a genetic defect, it’s a defect caused by modern breeders; it’s not an artifact of the breed’s creation. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2001, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dalmatians-as-fire-dogs/55064/5 "2001-02-20T14:28:53Z")
From this website, [http://www.lsu.edu/deafness/deaf.htm](http://www.lsu.edu/deafness/deaf.htm) > [@](#): > > DEAFNESS IN > DOGS & CATS > Information on Deafness Prevalence, Causes, & Management > For Owners, Breeders, and Researchers > > by > > George M. Strain > Professor of Neuroscience > School of Veterinary Medicine > Interim Vice Chancellor for Research & Dean of the Graduate School > Office of Research & Graduate Studies > Louisiana State University [http://www.lsu.edu/deafness/genetics.htm](http://www.lsu.edu/deafness/genetics.htm) > [@](#): > > Genetics of Deafness in Dogs > Inherited deafness can be caused by a gene defect that is autosomal dominant, recessive, sex-linked, or may involve multiple genes (more on this later). > > The disorder is usually associated with pigmentation patterns, where increasing amounts of white in the hair coat increase the likelihood of deafness. Two pigmentation genes in particular are often associated with deafness in dogs: the merle gene (seen in the Collie, Shetland Sheepdog, Dappled Dachshund, Harlequin Great Dane, American Foxhound, Old English Sheepdog, and Norwegian Dunkerhound among others) and the piebald gene (Bull Terrier, Samoyed, Greyhound, Great Pyrenees, Sealyham Terrier, Beagle, Bulldog, Dalmatian, English Setter). > > The incidence of congenital deafness in different breeds is seldom known because of the limited number of studies. In the Dalmatian, where the incidence is highest, 8% of all dogs are bilaterally deaf and 22% are unilaterally deaf. There’s lots more technical stuff on the genetics of deafness in dogs, but (a) I don’t want to violate Dr. Strain’s copyright by posting it all here, and (b) I don’t get it anyway. 😃 **Rebecca,** as you can see, there are other breeds of dogs that are prone to genetic deafness. Besides the breeds mentioned above, > [@](#): > > In the English Setter, Australian Cattle Dog, and Bull Terrier, where fewer numbers of dogs have been hearing tested, the incidence appears to be about ½ of that of Dalmatians. Unilateral or bilateral deafness is found in 75% of all white Norwegian Dunkerhounds, but the incidence in normal-color dogs is unknown. Other breeds with a high incidence are the Catahoula and Australian Shepherd. If firemen really do want a fire dog that’s congenitally immune to “death screams”, maybe they ought to stock up on white Norwegian Dunkerhounds. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2001, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dalmatians-as-fire-dogs/55064/6 "2001-02-20T15:03:18Z")
And as for “the crushing inbreeding required to get the desired coat color”, Dr. Strain also says: > [@](#): > > So what should breeders do when deafness crops up? The most conservative approach would be to not breed the affected animal and not repeat the breeding that produced deafness. > > An understanding of simple autosomal recessive and dominant patterns, as explained above, can allow the breeder to make informed decisions and likely avoid future deaf animals without sacrificing a breeding line that has been shaped over many years. However, extreme caution must be used when line breeding of dogs related to deaf dogs, whether the deafness is unilateral or bilateral. What you’re probably thinking of as “crushing inbreeding” is what animal breeders everywhere call “line breeding”. A simple explanation of line breeding is: [http://www.bluegrace.com/linebreeding.html](http://www.bluegrace.com/linebreeding.html) > [@](#): > > Line Breeding is the process whereby relatives are bred to one another in a breeding process. > [@](#): > > Example: A breeder is developing what she calls are her “lines”. Let’s call her lines “Boomerang”. She really likes a dog call “Figjam” from another set of lines. The figjam lines have nothing in common for at least 10 generations. To breed a Boomerang bitch with a Figjam dog would be called an “outcross”. It is unlikely that the progeny out of such a breeding would be anything great. However, if the progeny was put back to either a Boomerang or Figjam animal, then the progeny from that mating would in all likelihood be better. The breeder than achieves the aim of getting Figjam into her lines, while maintaining her own lines. “Lines” refers to the family tree of the dogs. In this example, the Figjam lines and the Boomerang lines have no common ancestors all the way back for 10 generations. When you’re breeding your own dogs in your kennel, say “Boomerang”, you usually have daddy dogs and mommy dogs, none of whom are particularly closely related to each other. You send the mommy dogs to other people’s daddy dogs to get bred, and people send their mommy dogs to your daddy dogs to get bred. All these dogs are distantly related–they’re like cousins many times removed. So you have a kennel full of dogs who aren’t really that closely related. But suppose you want to cross your “line” of dogs with somebody else’s “line” of dogs, say “Figjam”. This is called an “outcross” and it’s difficult to predict what sort of puppies you’ll get. They might be brilliant and gorgeous; they might be total wastes of DNA. However, what you CAN do, once you have your Boomerang/Figjam puppies, and they’re all grown up, is breed them with others of your Boomerang dogs, who will of course be very closely related to them indeed, depending on who they are. > [@](#): > > How close should I line breed? > In-breeding is when you breed very, very closely. eg: brother-sister breedings. > The fundamental question you need to ask yourself before every breeding is - why am I doing this, and what do I hope to achieve? > > I would love to be able to give you a definitive answer to this question, but really, the answer will come to you after considerable thought and research. Breeding is not an easy undertaking, and comes with considerable responsibilities. I think long and hard before I make such decisions. Right now, I am undertaking a strategic move where I’m going to an outcross - but which looks very similar to my breeding - and then will breed back along my lines. This is a decision based on the very tight lines I already have, a small gene pool, and a completely unsuitable gene pool from other local breeders. So, out of desperation, this breeder has resolved to cross her lines with someone else’s lines (an outcross), and then either breed some of those Boomerang/Figjam puppies to their full littermates (brother/sister), or to their half-brothers and half-sisters back at the Boomerang kennel, or to their Boomerang uncles and aunts, or possibly to their own fathers and mothers. By _homo sapiens’_ cultural standards, which prohibit incest in nearly every human culture on the planet, this sounds like a horrible thing. However, it’s something that livestock breeders have been doing ever since people started domesticating animals and noticed that a daughter goat bred back to her father sometimes had the effect of fixing a characteristic in their flock of goats, like coat color or increased milk production. For the perusal of anybody who comes along and can make sense out of it: Pictures of different Dalmatian coat colors and explanations of their genetics: [http://www.geocities.com/paisleydals//color.html](http://www.geocities.com/paisleydals//color.html) A serious discussion of canine color genetics: [http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/ColorGen.html](http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/ColorGen.html) ---
**Author:** ![JillGat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@JillGat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JillGat)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2001, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dalmatians-as-fire-dogs/55064/7 "2001-02-21T06:14:20Z")
I have heard - and it’s been my experience - that all totally white cats with blue eyes are deaf. - Jill ---
**Author:** ![JillGat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@JillGat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JillGat)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2001, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dalmatians-as-fire-dogs/55064/8 "2001-02-21T06:38:57Z")
A little research just showed me that not ALL white cats with blue eyes are deaf, but a higher proportion of them are than are cats of other color combos. ---
**Author:** ![Redboss](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8baadc/32.png) [@Redboss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redboss)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2001, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dalmatians-as-fire-dogs/55064/9 "2001-02-25T08:43:39Z")
Also, if the people in the burning building had better breeding, they would avoid screaming as they died, knowing the needless upset it would cause their friends, relatives and fire-dogs in the area. A slight moan or two is usually considered adequate, and avoids crushing the dalmations by unnecessary over-breeding. [hijack] [fan gush]\*\* Duck Duck Goose \*\* - your posts, usually gently-phrased, often devastating and always inexorable in their quest for calm rational thought, bring me great joy. hehehehe. I can only aspire… Thanks! [fan gush] [/hijack] And **Rebecca** - welcome!!