# Damn abortion protesters **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 4, 2005, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649 "2005-04-04T13:06:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/222 "2005-04-06T00:38:11Z")
> [@Scoundrel Swanswater](#): > > People like Muad’Dib see women as half-people who shouldn’t enjoy sex and just are a sort of test-tube for popping out babies. > People **do** and **will** have sex for other reasons than procreation. > We are not the only ones, dolphins and certain types of monkeys (bonobo’s) also have recreational sex. > Apparently it is more important to preserve life, than to make sure a baby is born into a family that actually wants it. > > I also think it is quite disturbing that some people think a fetus has more rights to live than an adult, because of this so-called “innocence”-thing. > That is just the biggest load of bull-crap. > I can’t, for the life of me, figure out what they mean with such a nonsensical statement : of course a fetus is innocent, but innocent of what? 1. Go to hell you specious slanderous dick. 2. Of course it is important that the baby is born into a loving home, but don’t you see that from my poit of view you are essentially saying “This child is probably going to have a crappy life, we should kill it”. Who are you to make and enforce such a judgment on another? 3. I don’t think that the fetus has more value than the mother. As I have already said, I would support abortion when the mothers life is in danger. Hell, the Catholic church supports abortion when the mothers life is in danger! ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/223 "2005-04-06T00:40:44Z")
> [@Jeep's Phoenix](#): > > You need a biology class. You do realize that not every fertilized egg completely matures - sometimes the body (gasp!) aborts naturally. If it’s early enough, a woman may not even notice. What legislation do you propose we enact about _that_? None, it is no different or less tragic than a child dying from cancer. Sometimes people die and it is no ones fault and nothing could have been done. ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/224 "2005-04-06T00:51:19Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > You keep saying “In my view” or “I feel” or “I believe” or “In my opinion” etc… This shows me that you realize the weakness of your argument-it’s not based upon undisputed facts, but unsubstantiated opinions-yet you still insist upon using said opinions as a basis for determining policy for another human being, one who may not share those same opinions. No, I was trying to be polite by trying to acknowledge the points where there is disagreement so as to better focus the argument on pertinent facts rather than keep making arguments that make assumptions that others don’t agree with which would only confuse things and cause greater irreconcilable conflict. > [@](#): > > Not true. The mother is a foreign influence, and a big one, yet you’re vehement against her voluntarily removing herself from the equation. If these zygotes and fetuses are truly alive, they should be able to survive on their own, independently, right? After all, that is an integral part of the definition of what constitutes life. The ability to survive on your own is not at all a condition to define life. As I said earlier, what about parasites? Or to extend the argument, what about someone who is dependent on a machine, or certain medicines to live, are they any less human? > [@](#): > > And you’re saying that the “rights” of that fetus supersede the rights of the mother, much the same way that, oh, I dunno, the “rights” of slave owners superseded the rights of their slaves 150 years ago. Your argument is not very logically consistent, I must say. If the slavery analogy is to hold true, than it’s very much a pro-choice argument. Not at all. I am saying that the right to kill your baby never has existed, just as the right to control a slaves right never existed even though it was enforced by law as abortion is now. ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/225 "2005-04-06T00:57:10Z")
> [@PinkMarabou](#): > > I am so sick of the morality police in this country. What is moral for me, may not be moral for my next door neighbor. But who’s to say which set of morals are right? Not you! If you don’t believe in abortion . . . DON’T HAVE ONE. It’s not YOUR life, it’s mine. This is my body, not yours. > > Oh, and BTW, I had an abortion during college because I had NO money and didn’t feel fit to bring a healthy, happy child into this world who would automatically live in a broken home. I also knew if I went through with it, I would never be able to give it up for adoption. Does that make me, in your eyes, a muderer? I have NO regrets, NO remorse. I knew I did what was right for me and my future. 1. This is not an issue where we can “agree to disagree”. Again say it was 150 years ago, how much would you respect the argument “If you don’t like slavery don’t own a slave”? 2. Why could you not give the child up for adoption. ---
**Author:** ![WolfpackJeep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpackjeep/32/2921_2.png) [@WolfpackJeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WolfpackJeep)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/226 "2005-04-06T01:04:58Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > Y’know, I don’t think all of them are nuts. I think the ones we see with the signs, the ones that shoot doctors and blow up clinics; those people are nuts. I think the majority of people who are against abortion, for whatever reason, are fairly normal. I just wish they could see the difference between “I don’t like it, and I’m not going to do it.” and “I don’t like it, and I’m not going to let _you_ do it.” I’m starting to think they don’t want to see the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/227 "2005-04-06T01:08:03Z")
> [@lavenderlemon](#): > > You obviously know and care very little about the how the consequences of an unwanted pregnancy can affect a woman’s emotional and physical well being. Yes I do but can’t you see that I see this as the wholsale slaughter of thousands of children a year. Your argument only makes sense if the fetus has no human rights. > [@](#): > > So she deserves to be injured or die? How can death be a "pro-life"position? All life matters – except for women who have abortions? Death is not a “Pro-Life” position. Unlike in abortion, no one is forcing those women to be injured or die. > [@](#): > > As has been pointed out repeatedly all fertilized eggs do not result in pregnancy. Roughly one fourth of all fertilized eggs will not make it past the first trimester. > > You didn’t answer my question about legality. Will you put women in jail who have abortions? Will you investigate miscarriages? 1. Irrelevent. 2. Quite possibly. > [@](#): > > And that’s why abortion should remain legal. Anti-abortion laws make every sexual encounter dangerous. They penalize poor women. They will be widely ignored as thousands of women will go abroad to have one every year. They are particularly ridiculous in American society where access to either pre or post natal care to actually take care of any baby is sometime completely denied because the woman in question can’t pay for it. > > The pro and cons of abortion laws are quite firmly on the side against. > > Anti-abortion laws don’t stop abortions. Even you admit they kill and maim. 1.You can’t kill a child just because his existance is inconvient to you. 2.Anti-abortion laws would not stop all abortions, but they would stop the vast majority of them. 3.I never admited that. They do not directly maim and kill, unlike allowing abortion which quite assuradly does kill. ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/228 "2005-04-06T01:13:17Z")
> [@PinkMarabou](#): > > You know, I have no problem discussing this rationally. But this is a touchy subject with me anyways because I HAVE BEEN THERE, and when there are people in this thread basically calling me a muderer, turnabout is fair. > > Get the fuck over yourself jackass. No one has called anyone a murderer. I have, in fact, said that I do not beilieve such women to be murderers because they do not realize and understand what they are doing. ---
**Author:** ![Dubious\_Weasle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b782af/32.png) [@Dubious\_Weasle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dubious_Weasle)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/229 "2005-04-06T01:19:03Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > Great googly moogly. Can any abortion protestor actually debate this issue without resorting to pleas on people’s emotions and stick to the facts? > **You effectively robbed your sister of a choice**. You consigned her to care for another person indefinitely. You are not physically or financially responsible for that person. You, sir, have lost all credibility. Slight nitpick. From what was writting it sounds like the sister was _persuaded_. Now, without knowing more about the situation we can be sure what the power dynamic was and thus, while I disagree without pretty much all of what Muad’Dib has written so far, it is premature to to say the sister was denied a choice. Now, with that it mind Muad’Dib seems to be promoting the idea that the sister should have been denied the choice. So really the 'mora’l position is the same. Like I said, nitpick. ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/230 "2005-04-06T01:23:41Z")
> [@dublos](#): > > You know this is completely impossible or you wouldn’t keep putting up exceptions to that. You’ve already said that if the development of the egg toward a human being has shown that the mother’s life would be endangered or in fact her death would be assured were that pregnancy to continue then you’re ok with an abortion taking place. Which I read as you can accept it is necessary, not that you like it even in these cases. Excuse me? What happened to that developing mass of cell’s right to life? By threatening the life of the mother the fetus’s right to life is revoked, just as if a man shooting at me has revoked his right to life by giving me just reason to kill him before he kills me. > [@](#): > > Conception occurs when sperm fertilizes egg, said egg is not yet implanted in the uterine wall. > > Ok, we just defined _that_ as the moment of “the right to life”. So if Mom doesn’t do everything in her power from that moment forward to ensure the implantation and full gestation of that egg she is guilty of what, manslaughter? If she actively did something to prevent it, quite possibly yes. > [@](#): > > A young athlete gets pregnant and without knowing she’s pregnant engages in strenuous physical activity that causes a miscarriage, she’s guilty of what, murder? Of course not. Murder requires you to have the intent to kill someone. That case would be purely an accidental death. > [@](#): > > You are making an arbitrary decision by deciding that the right to life begins at conception. If you can come up with a rational scientific reason why it has to be then rather than at the point that the fertilized egg implants safely in the uterine wall, or oh when the mass of cells actually develops a brain I’d be happy to hear it. It is hardly an arbitrary decision. I have already posted my reasoning. It is at that point that a new creature, with its own distinct genetic code is created. It is no longer a potential human being, it is an actual human being starting on the road of life. > [@](#): > > My personal opinion is actually less strict than the law is. My personal opinion is that if the baby isn’t able to be alive outside of the mother’s womb then that baby isn’t a person with rights yet. That’s a lot further than some pro-choice folks will go but to me that’s the logical end point of “it’s her body, it’s her choice”. > > That’s also because it gives me the easiest scientifically verifiable point to determine that a “Right to Life” should exist for this person. It’s now a living, breathing human being. How is that not an arbitrary decision? You set up a point that is almost impossible to define and changes as scientific progress continues. What if tomorrow scientists create an artificial womb that can hold a child from the moment of conception, it is living outside the mother now so does its right to life exist according to you then? How is it any different from a man on a respirator? ---
**Author:** ![Dubious\_Weasle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b782af/32.png) [@Dubious\_Weasle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dubious_Weasle)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/231 "2005-04-06T01:25:13Z")
Nevermind, several others have already addressed this. Teach me to reply to a 5 page thread while still on the second page. ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/232 "2005-04-06T01:27:26Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > Actually, the question is “Why do abortion protestors feel the need to show these lurid posters that aren’t at all a factual representation of an aborted fetus when it does nothing to help their cause and upsets my lunch?” Because we belive that innocent children are being murderd and we are honor bound to end the practice as soon as possible. > [@](#): > > However. If we’re going to answer _your_ question, then I would say as follows: “we” (the collective we, the United States “we”) already allow abortion. And it’s been questioned and tried in the courts over and over, and the answer is still “yes.” Whether or not “you” feel the awareness of a fetus is important, the courts do, as it gives them a basis on which to make their decision. Saying “It doesn’t matter if a living thing is aware, it’s still alive” is also a good argument for why a person shouldn’t have chemotherapy. Just because the courts allow something it does not make it right. > [@](#): > > **drpepper** , I have no problem with people who don’t believe in abortion. More power to them. I don’t believe in abortion, either. What I _do_ believe in, and what I insist you respect, is that I have the right to decide whether or not to carry a child to term. I respect your right to do the same. If you decide to have your child and never have an abortion, good for you! You have that right. You do not have the right to force me to live by your standards and belief structure. And I don’t have the right to force you to live by mine. It’s called the rights of the individual. I have as much a right and duty to try and stop you as people had 150 years ago to try and end slavery. They had to go to war to force their view on the south. ---
**Author:** ![WolfpackJeep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpackjeep/32/2921_2.png) [@WolfpackJeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WolfpackJeep)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/233 "2005-04-06T01:27:27Z")
> [@Dubious Weasle](#): > > Nevermind, several others have already addressed this. Teach me to reply to a 5 page thread while still on the second page. Heck, teach me to start a thread with “abortion” in the title. I expected a big argument concerning First Amendment rights, not this mess. ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/234 "2005-04-06T01:29:38Z")
> [@Mr. Excellent](#): > > Admittedly, the anti-abortion people are nuts. But just for the sake of argument, look at it from their point of view for a second. When they refer to abortion as “genocide”, they aren’t kidding. That use of the word is inaccurate, but they really do view abortion as a crime akin to the Holocaust, Cambodia, Rwanda, Darfur, and so on. > > As I said, this is plainly nuts. But _if_ you accept that basic premise, then the actions of these protestors are not only morally acceptable, they’re a moral imperative. If I thought my own government were sanctioning genocide, or a crime akin to it, I would feel compelled to use every non-violent means at my disposal to stop it - including photographs intended to shock and horrify. > > My point here isn’t that what the anti-choicers are doing is in any way _good_ - it is, however, something that can be understood, and I believe it’s important to understand one’s political opponents. Aside from the “nuts” comment, thank you for your understanding **Mr. Excellent**. ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/235 "2005-04-06T01:32:43Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > Y’know, I don’t think all of them are nuts. I think the ones we see with the signs, the ones that shoot doctors and blow up clinics; those people are nuts. I think the majority of people who are against abortion, for whatever reason, are fairly normal. I just wish they could see the difference between “I don’t like it, and I’m not going to do it.” and “I don’t like it, and I’m not going to let _you_ do it.” I don’t dislike abortion just because I think it is “icky”, I hate it because I believe it to be murder. I am not trying to stop people from doing something that I don’t like, I am trying to stop them from killing innocent children. Since this is what I believe what other choice of action could I reasonably have? ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/236 "2005-04-06T01:34:54Z")
> [@PinkMarabou](#): > > No, you’re saying that a clump of cells has rights. As long as it depends on a host body, it certainly has NO rights. Therefore we as a society remain (and probably always will remain) pro-CHOICE. How is that any different from someone who depends on a machine or medicine to live? ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/237 "2005-04-06T01:36:59Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > And an embryo isn’t a person. You’re the one trying to say that awareness shouldn’t matter. _shrug_ A tumor isn’t aware either. It has its own (human) DNA and grows in much the same manner as a fetus. It depends on its host for continued survival. It’s alive! Killing it is murder! A tumor will never become self-aware or gain consciousness and therefore has no right to life. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/238 "2005-04-06T01:40:35Z")
**Muad’Dib** , why do you keep referring to fetuses as “children”? They clearly (and scientifically) are not, and frankly in doing so you seem to be making a rather silly and transparent emotional plea. ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/239 "2005-04-06T01:41:35Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > **Muad’Dib** , a lot of those fertilized eggs don’t even make it to the uterus, anyways, so a fertilized egg is NOT a pregnancy. Any doctor will tell you that pregnancy doesn’t occur until implantation in the uterus. (And if it implants somewhere else, then an abortion is a medical necessity). A pregnancy may not have begun but a life has. > [@](#): > > When it’s growing in YOUR uterus, then you have a right to do whatever with it. When it’s in MY uterus, and MY body, you have no say. Period. Personally, I feel that after a certain point in pregnancy, abortion should ONLY be used in extreme emergencies. But in the first trimester? We’re talking about something that’s not conscious, or sentient, or able to exist on its own. It’s a potential human, yes. But it’s not something that should have MORE rights than the woman. Not once you have a seperate life in there. Whether you like it or not you are responsible for it and its safe delivery just as you are responsible for a child that is born. Just as we force a dead-beat dad to be responsible for his children whether he likes it or not. ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/240 "2005-04-06T01:41:42Z")
> [@Muad'Dib](#): > > Since this is what I believe what other choice of action could I reasonably have? Maybe show a little humility, admit that you might not have all the answers and what you believe is not necessarily “the TRUTH”, and stop telling people how to run their lives. Sounds pretty reasonable to me. ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/241 "2005-04-06T01:46:11Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > IUDs and the pill were mentioned earlier as forms of birth control. What worries me is some people who believe life begins at fertilization consider those forms of birth control to be abortion because they can (in the case of the pill) or do (as in the IUD) prevent fertilized eggs from implanting in the womb. As was Pitted recently, some pharmacists are now refusing to fill prescriptions for the pill or dispense the morning after pill on those very grounds. Yes, something that prevents the implantation of a fertilized egg is an abortion and should be outlawed. However most cotraception, including the cotroversial “morning after pill” do not do that. > [@](#): > > Someone quoted **Muad Dib** referring to “bad choices” earlier. I wonder. Would my friend making love to her husband be a “bad choice”? As I said, they have chosen not to have children for medical reasons. Since any act which places the penis in or, reportedly, near the vagina can result in pregnancy and pre-ejaculate does contain sperm, should she and her husband live celibately or refrain from that form of sex? That’s a lot to ask of a couple who are married and very much in love and I certainly won’t ask it of them, although I do ask that they spare me the details. I’ve never planned on having kids. Should I, therefore, be celibate for the rest of my life or, failing that, get real good at giving blow jobs? 😉 If so, I have one suggestion for anyone who thinks that: you go first. > > CJ Then they should strictly use contraception or get a sterilization procedure done. When my parents decided on not having any more children my father had a vasectomy done. You have to take responsibility for your actions. You can’t kill a child just because it is inconvenient. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649.md?page=13)