# Damn abortion protesters **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 4, 2005, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649 "2005-04-04T13:06:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/322 "2005-04-06T19:06:39Z")
> [@andros](#): > > :shrug: Ok then. Apart from putting it on the record that I’ve made up no lies about your position, scurrilous or otherwise, I’m happy with that. You’ve established that your are arguing from emotion and your cite is “fuck you, I’m right.” You’re seriously arguing that I’m arguing from emotion when I say that infants have desires? Sorry, Charlie. That’s an absurd position, and it’s akin to asking for a cite that infants have vocal cords. The fact that it’s gonna be difficult for me to pull up a cite on the bleedin’ obvious is your problem, not mine. If you really want to set forth the argument that infants don’t have desires, then YOU’RE the one that’s going to need to do so: the common-sense conclusion is that the infant reaches for the breast because the infant desires nourishment, that the infant cries because the infant desires comfort, and so forth. If you think that desires dont’ play into it, then you’re the one who needs to offer an alternate explanation, and further explain at what point in a human’s development the desires first form, and what prompts this formation. Not me. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/323 "2005-04-06T19:09:01Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Oh, and why is insane to ask for my ignorance to be eradicated? I am unaware that newborns have desires in the sense that I understand the term. I want you to show me, so I can learn. When did that become insanity? The insanity is not that you asked for a cite; the insanity is when you said that I couldn’t give you one, implying that infants DON’T feel desires. If you’d just said, “Daniel, I don’t think that infants have desires in the sense that I understand the term; can you clarify what you mean?” then I wouldn’t have accused you of insanity. But since you’ve explained that you’re just not aware that newborns have desires in the sense that you understand the term, please let me know how you understand the term, and I’ll be happy to explain myself. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/324 "2005-04-06T19:09:54Z")
> [@andros](#): > > You’re “pretty sure.” “Maybe.” “Perhaps.” Fine. > > I’m pretty sure that maybe, perhaps, 2+2=5, for sufficiently large values of five. > > Quite being so fucking shrill. It’s not my fault you’re confusing an emotional argument with a logical one, and it’s not my fault it’s flawed. Obscenities aren’t backing up your point. > > Now, kindly explain to me why a newborn has desires and a fetus does not. And while you’re at it, please provide the definition of “desire” you’re using. Thanks. Now you’re just being obtuse. Please show me where I argued in this thread (or any other, for that matter) that a fetus has desires. I’m arguing that a newborn baby does. It may be anecdotal evidence, but this isn’t Great Debates. I suggest you go ask a few mothers whether or not they think their newborn baby has desires. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/325 "2005-04-06T19:11:49Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > What about 'em? I used the word “any” for a reason. If your concern is borne from something other than an incorrect reading of what I wrote, I’m afraid you’ll need to elaborate. > > Daniel Actually, here’s the quote: > [@](#): > > It ain’t human life that i want to protect: it’s desires, experience, identity, hopes, dreams. A single-celled organism lacks all of these, and I don’t give a shit about whether it’s killed, whether that single-celled organism is a paramecium or a fertilized egg. > > Come talk to me when it has any of desires, experience, identity, hopes, or dreams, and I’ll be interested in protecting it. Did you mean “any one of”? Or disregard if you like. It was a cheap shot. All pro-life/pro-choice arguments begin and end the same way: “Assume the fetus is/is not a separate human life with rights to be protected”. And then follow with rigorous logic from there. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/326 "2005-04-06T19:13:18Z")
All I want is evidence that newborns experience desire (along with operating definitions). I don’t believe such evidence exists. Therefore, I don’t believe you can provide that evidence. I would very much like to be proven wrong. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/327 "2005-04-06T19:19:06Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Now you’re just being obtuse. > > Please show me where I argued in this thread (or any other, for that matter) that a fetus has desires. I’m arguing that a newborn baby does. It may be anecdotal evidence, but this isn’t Great Debates. Truthfully, I had you briefly confused with **LHoD**. Apologies to you both. See, if it can be established that newborns have desires and fetuses don’t, then we have a valid demarcation point in the abortion debate. (Why should it make any difference what forum we’re in? Isn’t it best to argue from reason regardless?) > [@](#): > > I suggest you go ask a few mothers whether or not they think their newborn baby has desires. Needs, sure. Desires? A bit trickier. Is a newborn sentient? Cognizant? Aware, in the strictest sense? I’m sure most parents would like to believe that their newborn is all those things. But then, the Schindlers wanted to believe that their daughter Terri was going to start tapdancing at any second. What a parent wants to believe ain’t necessarily so. As another example, most parents want to believe that their kid is the smartest child in the world. They’re all wrong. Mine is. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/328 "2005-04-06T19:20:57Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > The insanity is not that you asked for a cite; the insanity is when you said that I couldn’t give you one, implying that infants DON’T feel desires. Actually, you inferred incorrectly. I meant to imply that you cannot provide one because no such cite exists. Sorry for the confusion. ---
**Author:** ![dublos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f08c70/32.png) [@dublos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dublos)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/329 "2005-04-06T19:24:01Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Ever been around a newborn? Ever seen how much they cry? I’m pretty sure it’s because they **desire** that they get fed. Maybe it’s because they **desire** that their diaper gets changed. Perhaps they **desire** to be held. > > Quit being so fucking stupid. Umm… and this would not apply to a newborn kitten, puppy, calf or chicken in exactly what way? (presuming one decided to diaper said newborn non-human) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/330 "2005-04-06T19:26:17Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Actually, here’s the quote: > Did you mean “any one of”? Yes, of course–what else would “any of” mean? [quote Or disregard if you like. It was a cheap shot. All pro-life/pro-choice arguments begin and end the same way: “Assume the fetus is/is not a separate human life with rights to be protected”. And then follow with rigorous logic from there. [/QUOTE] Nonsense. I’m not assuming that the fetus has no rights to be protected; I’m **concluding** that. An entity with no capacity for desire, identity, hopes, fears, etc. has no rights that can be violated. (The most common objection is that a person in a coma has none of these; this is incorrect, inasmuch as a comatose person has a discrete identity which may be described, and which is merely temporarily suspended). **andros** , I’ll go by the dictionary definition, which is “a wish or longing.” An expression of hunger is an expression of desire. Infants express hunger. [cite](http://depts.washington.edu/growing/Feed/Develop.htm#Hunger%20and%20Satiety%20Cues). I’m not talking about high-level desires; I’m not saying that infants desire to hear Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony, or that they desire to understand the nature of love. I’m saying they can express a very few very basic desires (a desire for warmth, a desire for food, a desire not to fall, a desire not to hurt, etc.), which is more than a single-celled organism can express. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/331 "2005-04-06T19:30:23Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Needs, sure. Desires? A bit trickier. Is a newborn sentient? Cognizant? Aware, in the strictest sense? I think you need to explain your definition of “desires.” Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/332 "2005-04-06T19:35:43Z")
Oh, goodie. We’ve argued the taste out of the subject, but instead of letting it die a natural death we’re being aggressively nitpicky about syntax. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/333 "2005-04-06T19:37:39Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > Oh, goodie. We’ve argued the taste out of the subject, but instead of letting it die a natural death we’re being aggressively nitpicky about syntax. I have no idea what you mean, least of all by “we’ve”. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/334 "2005-04-06T19:38:20Z")
> [@beagledave](#): > > Since it’s so obvious… > > Please provide the cite that a newborn baby has desires. You are correct, which I why I personally don’t view infanticide (morally) as being murder. I understand the need for society to draw a line at an arbitrary and easily definable point to be on the safe side (just like 21 is the legal drinking age) and I respect that. But there’s nothing magical that occurs at the instant of birth that imbues a newborn with anything special that it didn’t have moments before when it was still in the womb. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/335 "2005-04-06T19:38:45Z")
**LHoD** , I want to have your children. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/336 "2005-04-06T20:10:59Z")
I am so damned sick of reading all the anti-abortion people refer to pregnancy as an “incovenience.” For many woman, myself included, pregnancy is anything but. Pregnancy means nine months of nausea, bloating, constipation, elevated blood pressure, bone loss, itchy skin, leg pain, back pain, interrupted sleep and enormous weight gain. The end result of a pregnancy is typically hours and hours of enormous pain followed by permanent scarring and aching breasts. My last pregnancy forced me into the hospital for three weeks. I couldn’t keep any food down and was in the worst pain I’ve ever experienced. Under any other circumstances we would never force anyone to voluntarily go through such an ordeal. Why are some people so insistant that once a fertilized egg exists that none of this matters? Given how unbelievably hard pregnancy so often is on a woman’s body we should be down on our hands and knees heartily applauding every single woman who voluntarily gives birth. Those who don’t want to should be given our sympathies and understanding instead of stupid homilies by people who can’t the difference between potential and actual life. A woman who has an abortion needs a better method of birth control. She doesn’t need some prick threatening her with a jail sentence, especially when said prick admits he doesn’t particularly give a damn about her reproductive organs. **Muad’Dib** , You may not care about my uterus but rest assured I sure as hell do. I’ve seen some nervy statements by anti-abortionists but that particularly sentiment deserves a special little corner of contempt. Fuck you for your open and callous disregard of my well-being and the continued health of all women around the world. I hope you never get married because you clearly don’t care very much about any potential wife’s body parts. I certainly hope you never father girls. You don’t deserve to create a uterus if you don’t care about what happens to it. ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/337 "2005-04-06T20:23:11Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > Anyone who knowingly prevents a fertilized egg from coming to maturity may be a murderer under your paradigm. Yes. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/338 "2005-04-06T20:48:20Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > A carrot needs sunlight, but a carrot does not desire sunlight. A fertilized egg needs nutrition, but a fertilized egg does not desire nutrition. An infant needs food, AND an infant desires food. > > I’m not fucking providing you a cite that a newborn baby has desires. > Daniel Of course I didn’t say “a fertilized egg” in my initial request to you…I said “fetus”. If you can’t provide a cite that newborn baby “desires” food beyond the same biological desire/need that a fetus (or embryo does) than I think you’ve chosen to punt. At least Blaron is being honest in saying he has no moral problem with infanticide. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/339 "2005-04-06T20:53:07Z")
> [@beagledave](#): > > I think you’ve chosen to punt. _:weeps passionately_ You caught me. I love me some infanticide. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/340 "2005-04-06T20:54:53Z")
To further clarify my above point concerning “desire” for food. A newborn only “expresses” a desire for food in the sense that he/she NEEDS to. He/she no longer has an umbilical cord supplying nutrition. LHoD seems to be suggesting that there is a greater developmental progression between a baby born at 28 weeks…than a 36 week old fetus, because the baby has exited a uterus. (And to further clarify…this magical line in the sand of who gets to live and who gets to die is not MY line in the sand…I’m just pointing out the silly inconsistencies). ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/341 "2005-04-06T20:59:42Z")
> [@Muad'Dib](#): > > Yes. Murders are probably happening in your hometown, and all you can do is bitch on a messageboard? If I truly believed a concentration camp was running in my neighborhood, I’d do everything in my power to put a stop to it, the law bedamned. You lack the courage of your convictions, sir. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649.md?page=18)