# Damn abortion protesters **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 4, 2005, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649 "2005-04-04T13:06:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/82 "2005-04-05T01:09:36Z")
Force in the same way that we force pedophiles to stop their practices, the same as we force drug addicts, the same as we force murders. If it were only a matter of ‘your body’ then I would be in complete agreement with you. But we are not talking about just your body, we are talking about the life of a child. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/83 "2005-04-05T01:10:56Z")
> [@Muad'Dib](#): > > Force in the same way that we force pedophiles to stop their practices, the same as we force drug addicts, the same as we force murders. If it were only a matter of ‘your body’ then I would be in complete agreement with you. But we are not talking about just your body, we are talking about the life of a child. No. We aren’t. We’re talking about a mass of cells. Until you start arguing with some facts, it’s very difficult to take you seriously. And so far, you haven’t presented anything except your opinion and some rhetoric. ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/84 "2005-04-05T01:11:14Z")
> [@Muad'Dib](#): > > When your decision results in the death of innocents it is my moral duty to first try and persuade, and failing that, to force you. Wow, did anyone else know they gave James Kopp an internet connection and a computer? Colour me surprised. ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/85 "2005-04-05T01:15:15Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > I’m not sure why you continue to insist on making comparisons to situations that aren’t even comparable. If you want to fight child slavery, go to it. There are a lot of countries where children work in deplorable conditions and die in staggering numbers. I’m sure your help and time and money would be appreciated. Even lauded. This is not child slavery. This is not genocide. And they are not “innocents.” They are cells, gametes, things without higher brain functions (until 26 weeks gestation). In other words, less of a person than was Terri Schiavo when her feeding tube was removed. Again that is where we disagree. It is not just a clump of cells to me because it will, so long as nothing ‘gets in the way’, become a conscious creature and therefore has a right to “Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness”. > [@](#): > > Oh, and until you take financial and physical responsibility for your nephew? You had no right whatever to make life decisions for your sister. None. Your acts are not noble, they’re deplorable. Tell that to my nephew (who I hear laughing in the room behind me). My act was just as noble as if I had talked someone out of murder, which, actually, I did. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/86 "2005-04-05T01:16:36Z")
How exactly do you plan on using force? ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/87 "2005-04-05T01:18:25Z")
> [@kung fu lola](#): > > Wow, did anyone else know they gave James Kopp an internet connection and a computer? Colour me surprised. So it would be wrong of me to try and force a person to stop who was going to murder another? ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/88 "2005-04-05T01:19:08Z")
> [@Muad'Dib](#): > > Tell that to my nephew (who I hear laughing in the room behind me). My act was just as noble as if I had talked someone out of murder, which, actually, I did. Great googly moogly. Can any abortion protestor actually debate this issue without resorting to pleas on people’s emotions and stick to the facts? You effectively robbed your sister of a choice. You consigned her to care for another person indefinitely. You are not physically or financially responsible for that person. You, sir, have lost all credibility. ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/89 "2005-04-05T01:20:10Z")
> [@leander](#): > > How exactly do you plan on using force? Overturn Roe vs. Wade, then try to get a constitutional amendment passed that defined the right to life as beginning at conception. ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/90 "2005-04-05T01:26:57Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > Great googly moogly. Can any abortion protestor actually debate this issue without resorting to pleas on people’s emotions and stick to the facts? > You effectively robbed your sister of a choice. You consigned her to care for another person indefinitely. You are not physically or financially responsible for that person. You, sir, have lost all credibility. I haven’t appealed to emotion, like it or not this is a life and death issue that easily creates much drama. When talking about why slavery or the holocaust was evil you are going to have emotional issues come up in even the most rational and level-headed discussion. I didn’t rob her of choice. Firstly because I did not force her not to go I talked her down from it, she could have gone behind my back. Secondly the choice is never really there, you have as much of a choice to have an abortion as slaveholder had property rights over other men. Also, that is a cheap exit. I could just as easily say that you support the murder of children and have therefore lost all credibility . ---
**Author:** ![WolfpackJeep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpackjeep/32/2921_2.png) [@WolfpackJeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WolfpackJeep)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/91 "2005-04-05T01:30:28Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > Great googly moogly. Can any abortion protestor actually debate this issue without resorting to pleas on people’s emotions and stick to the facts? Evidently not. How does the saying go…“It’s taking longer than we thought”? ---
**Author:** ![Tenar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@Tenar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenar)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/92 "2005-04-05T01:42:32Z")
> [@Muad'Dib](#): > > 1. I actually support abortion when the mothers’ life is in danger (there are few people who do not) or in the case of extreme birth defects (the kind in which the child will never achieve consciousness). I see a problem here. People couldn’t even agree on whether or not Terry Schiavo had consciousness, and she wasn’t a fetus. Judgment calls regarding the potential consciousness of a potential child would be difficult in the extreme, so you’re not exactly out of the quicksand on this one. Given the strength of your opposition to abortion as you have described it, my guess is that for **practical** purposes, the “extreme birth defects” clause would only kick in if the fetus were so severely anencephalic that there might not even be enough left to breathe with, much less think with. (Yes, folks, I do know that the parts of the brain that control autonomic functions exist without consciousness.) Sorry for the hijack. Good luck returning to the OP, though I suspect the thread is more or less totally derailed. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/93 "2005-04-05T01:44:46Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > Great googly moogly. Can any abortion protestor actually debate this issue without resorting to pleas on people’s emotions and stick to the facts? > You effectively robbed your sister of a choice. You consigned her to care for another person indefinitely. You are not physically or financially responsible for that person. You, sir, have lost all credibility. Unless **Muad’Dib** forced her sister not to have an abortion, then he didn’t rob his sister of a choice. She ultimately chose NOT to have an abortion, not her brother. As much as he’d like to believe he made the decision, he didn’t. And I don’t think he’s such a bad guy for persuading his sister against having one (I don’t think they should be done willy-nilly, personally). I’m not stepping into the abortion thing because 1) I’m not sure how I feel about it and 2) it’s a hijack. I will say that I agree 100% with the OP. There’s a time and place for graphic protest. A common eating area is not a good place for posters of dead babies. I know a couple of people who have suffered from miscarriages. They can be very gruesome and traumatizing events. Imagine if you recently miscarried and you turn the corner after class to find a poster of dead babies held up in front of your face. How is that supposed to make you feel? I know if that were me, I’d be so mad I’d probably beat someone up. ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/94 "2005-04-05T01:47:13Z")
> [@Tenar](#): > > I see a problem here. People couldn’t even agree on whether or not Terry Schiavo had consciousness, and she wasn’t a fetus. Judgment calls regarding the potential consciousness of a potential child would be difficult in the extreme, so you’re not exactly out of the quicksand on this one. Given the strength of your opposition to abortion as you have described it, my guess is that for **practical** purposes, the “extreme birth defects” clause would only kick in if the fetus were so severely anencephalic that there might not even be enough left to breathe with, much less think with. (Yes, folks, I do know that the parts of the brain that control autonomic functions exist without consciousness.) > > Sorry for the hijack. Good luck returning to the OP, though I suspect the thread is more or less totally derailed. Yeah, I agree it can be a tricky decision, there are often no definites in biology. You just have to be careful and if you are not sure, try to err on the side of life. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/95 "2005-04-05T02:39:32Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > I walked by the PETA protesters near the Grand Central Food Court, looked at their photos of cows and veal being tortured, and said (loudly enough for them to hear), “Right, a hambuger—_that’s_ what I wanted!” That’s funny, because once when passing one of their protests, I loudly remarked about how hungry it was making me for a meatball sub. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/96 "2005-04-05T02:41:20Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > That’s funny, because once when passing one of their protests, I loudly remarked about how hungry it was making me for a meatball sub. “their” refers, of course, to the crazy anti-abortion types. I can’t help it if your pictures look like food. ---
**Author:** ![WolfpackJeep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpackjeep/32/2921_2.png) [@WolfpackJeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WolfpackJeep)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/97 "2005-04-05T02:45:04Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > “their” refers, of course, to the crazy anti-abortion types. > > I can’t help it if your pictures look like food. They do look a bit like those oversaturated pictures in old cookbooks, don’t they? ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/98 "2005-04-05T02:52:37Z")
> [@Jeep's Phoenix](#): > > They do look a bit like those oversaturated pictures in old cookbooks, don’t they? :: is all hungry again, dammit :: ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/99 "2005-04-05T02:55:13Z")
I’ll take rhetorical fallacies for $800 Alex. “The rhetorical fallacy currently being displayed by \*\* Muad’Dib \*\*” :bzzzzzz: What is begging the question Alex? Thats correct! Your premise is that a fetus is a human with a right to life and than you conclude from that abortion is wrong. However there is no reason to consider a fetus in the same class as a human. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/100 "2005-04-05T03:02:04Z")
Eh? I don’t see any reason not to consider it a human. The moment the sperm and egg fuse a new seperate entity is created. That single cell is a human as much as you or I, it is just in a different stage of life. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649/101 "2005-04-05T03:06:19Z")
> [@treis](#): > > However there is no reason to consider a fetus in the same class as a human… And everyone should just take your word for that? And no, I am not asking for some cite from [www.holypoopabortionisfun.org](http://www.holypoopabortionisfun.org), but that is the crux of the matter: You and yours don’t believe a fetus to be a human with the same rights as a human. Others, [many others](http://www.zogby.com/Soundbites/ReadClips.dbm?ID=6982) it seems, feel otherwise. Some of you seem incapable of making the connection: If a person feels that a fetus is a human, then it is logical for them the believe that abortion is wrong. It really is amazingly simple. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-abortion-protesters/297649.md?page=6)