# Damn airlines. How the HELL do they get away with this shit. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 18, 2007, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610 "2007-09-18T15:10:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Foxy40](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Foxy40](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foxy40)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2007, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610/41 "2007-09-18T19:36:01Z")
[QUOTE=VCO3] I’ll never understand why people don’t fly Southwest when it’s an option. I mean, I’ve flown direct every time and haven’t paid more than $200 for a flight in _years_. And I get to choose my seat! [/QUOTE] I hate Southwest and will avoid it if I can get a flight within fifty dollars of the fare with another airline. They do not assigned seat and there is always a long line of people no matter how early you print your boarding passes. Everyone is pushing and fighting to get the best seat and the most storage space for their carry ons. I prefer to leisurely sit down in the waiting area until the moment I need to board rather then stand in line with the rest of the cattle so I don’t get the dreaded middle seat. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2007, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610/42 "2007-09-18T19:37:10Z")
I wouldn’t be griping so much except that it changes a 3 and a half hour trip into a 7 hour one. That’s going to be quite hard on my Mom. We may have to take the later flight and just bite the bullet and waste a day and a couple hundred dollars in Denver. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2007, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610/43 "2007-09-18T19:43:06Z")
[QUOTE=enipla] It was listed as non-stop. If I said direct anywhere, I meant non-stop. My Wife has the original itinerary. It says non-stop. [/QUOTE] In the future, you might consider looking at the United website directly as an alternative or as a back up to using Orbiz or whoever. I just checked your flight schedule and they show a nice little matrix. down the left side it says: **Non-stop 1-stop 2-stop** across the top it says: **Non refundable coach, refundable coach, lowest first class, and refundable first class** There are the lowest starting prices for each category listed in each box. Pretty had to get a misunderstanding with a system like this. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2007, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610/44 "2007-09-18T21:03:07Z")
[QUOTE=Rick] In the future, you might consider looking at the United website directly as an alternative or as a back up to using Orbiz or whoever. I just checked your flight schedule and they show a nice little matrix. down the left side it says: **Non-stop 1-stop 2-stop** across the top it says: **Non refundable coach, refundable coach, lowest first class, and refundable first class** There are the lowest starting prices for each category listed in each box. Pretty had to get a misunderstanding with a system like this. [/QUOTE] Yes, but the point is we didn’t misunderstand anything. They changed it to a layover AFTER we purchased it. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2007, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610/45 "2007-09-18T21:15:20Z")
I love Southwest if it is less than a 90 minute flight, otherwise not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2007, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610/46 "2007-09-18T21:17:16Z")
[QUOTE=enipla] I wouldn’t be griping so much except that it changes a 3 and a half hour trip into a 7 hour one. That’s going to be quite hard on my Mom. [/QUOTE] The real problem is that they aren’t contracting to transport you in X hours: they are contracting to transport you eventually. Sometimes you get there slower than you expected because of problems with weather or equipment, sometimes (as in this case) because they decide to cancel a flight. I think that all you can do is ask the airline to make the transfer and the extra time for your mother as comfortable as possible (as others have suggested). ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2007, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610/47 "2007-09-18T21:41:42Z")
[QUOTE=ArizonaTeach] But that’s the way it is, at least when it comes to non-refundable tickets. [/QUOTE] This is absolutely true. On most airlines, there really isn’t the option of buying a reasonable-cost ticket without a big fat lot of stipulations. If you absolutely must book a trip that you can get out of (if the airline changes schedules, switches planes, or otherwise trips you up on), you have to pay for the privilege with a different sort of ticket. It’s pretty impractical for most of us (god knows I’ve never paid for a no-restrictions ticket). But I think it bears pondering that our perceptions tend to be out of whack. Many people are so used to “affordable” air travel that they forget that what “affordable” tickets buy you is a pretty limited promise of satisfactory arrival. As airline finances have been squeezed and airports have been overloaded and other challenges grow, the chances of feeling screwed by a low-cost ticket is increased. You’re taking a big fat chance and, individually, you’re not that much of a valued customer. First of all, they have your money, and second of all, it wasn’t much $$ to begin with (from their perspective). One problem is that I don’t think anyone really focuses on the fine print. The airline tries not to alienate the cheapo passengers too much with the dire warnings, because these people are who fill the seats. But I think people’s expectations are off as a result. I’ve seen economy passengers huffily declare their intention to “never fly this airline again” (gee, they’ll sure miss you terribly, Mr. Skinflint Buying the Cheapest Flight You Can Find) and write their congressperson and god know what else. I’ve seen some really overblown expectations on the part of the steerage passengers. It is nice to fantasize about the changes that might come about if many more of us said “no” to the so-called deal the airlines are offering, and many of us actually DID refuse to fly again. However, in the short term I’m guessing airlines will just reduce fares and seduce other, more-innocent passengers into the losing deal. Longer term and bigger picture, I think both we and the airlines need to rethink what “low cost air travel” really should be. ---
**Author:** ![ACC\_Expat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/76d3ee/32.png) [@ACC\_Expat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ACC_Expat)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2007, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610/48 "2007-09-18T22:10:51Z")
_Originally posted by **Rick** _ > [@](#): > > Or Newark (EWR) you have to take a monorail to get to rental cars or another terminal. The people that designed the piece of shit system must have thought that no one ever has any luggage. Two people with a roller suitcase and briefcase each pretty much fill one monorail car. Or the time the system malfunctioned as we were climbing the grade from rental cars to terminal A. As we crept forward at 0.06mph, I had visions of missing my flight. Add to that surly security people and you have the perfect storm. If you’re connecting in EWR (Newark) on Continental and have to go from Terminal A to C, there is a shuttle that will take you there direct–I think the pickup in Terminal C is at gate 71 and in A it’s at 28 or 29. However, if you have to get in or out of Terminal B for a connection, then I think there’s no help available (which sucks since apparently Continental is moving more flights there?). I do loathe the monorail–you think it’s bad enough getting to the terminals and parking, well I can’t tell you how many NJTransit trains I’ve just missed over the years because of the monorail. What I hate the most about my former home airport are the motherfucking baggage claims in Terminal A that break all the motherfucking time. Why Continental hasn’t passed the worst one off on USAir or something just escapes me. Once it took me nearly two hours to get my bags (our flight was stuck behind two 757s worth of luggage from Florida…none of the weary business travelers on my flight from ORD (O’Hare) had the courage to ask why planes from FLL (Fort Lauderdale) and MCO (Orlando) were in A). I hate having to check my luggage at all, because it is not what the savvy traveler does, but my makeup and perfume violate 3-1-1 ( :rolleyes: ). **enipla** , who have you contacted (Orbitz or the airline directly?) and what sort of response have you received? ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2007, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610/49 "2007-09-18T22:11:05Z")
> [@](#): > > **ascenray** said: > After all, how hard is it to type “Minnesota” instead of “MN”? You mean MSP? Shitty airport. What architect decided that it’d be a great idea to build the airport as a single straight line? ‘Gate 6,092,784? Just get on the train and ride it six stops, then change trains and go five stops, and then it’s only another quarter mile!’ > [@](#): > > **Rick** said: > Or Newark (EWR) you have to take a monorail to get to rental cars or another terminal. Just like MCO (Orlando International)… But at least the monorail doesn’t have fifteen stops and a train-change. 😉 Also, I love Southwest. Always check in 24 hours ahead on the web, make sure I’m in boarding group A, and then park it on the floor next to the gate with a book about 2 hours before departure. Southwest gate agents at MCO (Orlando again) actually told people ‘No, you can’t have all 15 of your family members escort the one three year-old child onto the plane first.’ and the non-assigned seating is a blessing. I head straight for an exit row. > [@](#): > > **CrankyAsAnOldMan** said: > It is nice to fantasize about the changes that might come about if many more of us said “no” to the so-called deal the airlines are offering, and many of us actually DID refuse to fly again. Thanks to business travel, they know that’s not about to happen, and a lot of their business is business travel. ---
**Author:** ![TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/51bf81/32.png) [@TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2007, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610/50 "2007-09-18T22:31:17Z")
[QUOTE=Foxy40] I hate Southwest and will avoid it if I can get a flight within fifty dollars of the fare with another airline. They do not assigned seat and there is always a long line of people no matter how early you print your boarding passes. Everyone is pushing and fighting to get the best seat and the most storage space for their carry ons. I prefer to leisurely sit down in the waiting area until the moment I need to board rather then stand in line with the rest of the cattle so I don’t get the dreaded middle seat. [/QUOTE] The whole “cattle call” thing has never been a problem for me. Sure, there are always a few no-lifers that start lining up an hour before the flight boards, but the vast majority of flyers tend to just wait until they start announcing boarding to line up. I LOVE the ability to choose my own seat and HATE having an assigned seat on a plane. It’s all about being able to see who is where and making snap decisions about what to avoid and where to sit. Obese guy bulging over into the seat next to him? Pass! Mother with baby that’s already screaming - keep on trucking. Hot single girl that look like a nervous flyer? _Helllllllllo, my dear. I will comfort you!_😛 ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2007, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610/51 "2007-09-18T22:43:44Z")
[QUOTE=catsix] Just like MCO (Orlando International)… But at least the monorail doesn’t have fifteen stops and a train-change. 😉 [/QUOTE] Both MCO and SEA have trains that just flat rock. The arrive quite often, the cars are big enough that you don’t feel like a sardine, and they are fast. Newark on the other hand… ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2007, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610/52 "2007-09-18T23:34:38Z")
[QUOTE=CrankyAsAnOldMan] I think both we and the airlines need to rethink what “low cost air travel” really should be. [/QUOTE] OK. But we paid more for a non-stop flight. We could have taken the cheaper route to begin with but we didn’t. Now, we are flying some 500 miles out of the way, doubling our travel time, changing planes and are still paying for the more expensive ticket. We don’t choose non refundable because WE know that WE will honor our part of the agreement. If we couldn’t or decided not to go, tough noogies for us. Now that the airline has not lived up to their end of the contract (through no fault of mech problems or weather), my Mom may decide not to go. We may not only not get a refund there, will will still be paying for the more expensive non-stop fare. Mechanical or weather problems are fine. Better safe than sorry. And often, they will arrange for another carrier to take you. If they cancel the flight because they can’t make proper schedules and predict passangers load, you’re screwed. They canceled the flight and have given us very shitty options. If you ordered a 25” TV from a store and they later said that “no, they stopped making that, but you can have the 20” at the same price, and no you can’t have your money back” I’d be pissed off too. I don’t think you should have to gamble like that. At the least I think the difference between the two fares, non-stop vs. layover (from when we bought the tickets, not when they canceled our flight) should be refunded. ---
**Author:** ![whatami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/85f322/32.png) [@whatami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whatami)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2007, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610/53 "2007-09-18T23:54:24Z")
I’m another that will fly Soutwest whenever possible. I always know the plane I’ll be flying on, I’ve rarely had problems with delays/cancellations. The crews are empowered to fix things if they go wrong, and the last time I flew, the pilot at the stopover let me sit in the cockpit in HIS chair! I couldn’t believe when he let me, I felt for sure that would be against rules… especially post 9/11. In addition, since I live in Portland (PDX), they go most places I want here on the west coast and can rarely be beat in price. ---
**Author:** ![denquixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9bd4f/32.png) [@denquixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/denquixote)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2007, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610/54 "2007-09-19T02:07:26Z")
a direct flight is one which stops but you don’t change planes, a non-stop is just what it says, a connecting flight requires a change of planes. airlines always change their flights seasonally, partly because of weather patterns. anyone making a long range reservation for christmas will always have their flight changed before they leave. sometimes it is just 2 or 3 minutes, but some flights are always cancelled entirely often resulting in a change from direct to connecting flights. if you paid full price you can cancel but if you got a bargain you are usually screwed. i just looked up flights on hotwire for nov 21 from denver and nov 26 from pittsburgh and you can get a non-stop for $440 if you are interersted on US Air. I don’t know if these dates are any good, I was just checking random dates. Is your ticket completely non-refundable? At $450 it sounds expensive to be non-refundable. Going to Pit from Den by way of Philadelphia cannot possibly be your best option. ---
**Author:** ![denquixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9bd4f/32.png) [@denquixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/denquixote)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2007, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610/55 "2007-09-19T02:19:40Z")
sorry did not see you are going on the 22nd. you made your mistake by using orbitz, although i think they are owned by an airline they are not one. if you had booked through usair you probably would have gotten a lower price and better service. i wish southwest went to pit and this problem would not exist. remember: flight schedules change every fall. this always happens. ---
**Author:** ![Kiros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/439d5e/32.png) [@Kiros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiros)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2007, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610/56 "2007-09-19T02:23:11Z")
Put me in the “I will fly pretty much only Southwest, and I have no living idea why the rest of these companies are still in business” category. Maybe it’s because the vast majority (probably 95%) of the flying in my adult life has been on the PVD-BWI (Providence, RI to Baltimore) run and back, but I’ve done Southwest dozens and dozens of times, and I think I’ve had one delay, and no other problems of any kind. Of course, I could really give a damn if I get a middle seat, which separates me from something like 80% of the fliers out there right off. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2007, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610/57 "2007-09-19T02:25:03Z")
[QUOTE=Gangster Octopus] I love Southwest if it is less than a 90 minute flight, otherwise not so much. [/QUOTE] Back when other airlines fed you and nice stuff like that, I’d agree with you. Today Southwest seems indistinguishable from all others. I’d much rather get my boarding pass early and line up than be stuck in the middle when I book United through a government travel agency, when I’m flying on the federal dime. I used up my old frequent flier miles upgrading so I’d be able to breathe. My wife flies SW to coast to coast all the time with nary a problem. ---
**Author:** ![LurkMeister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@LurkMeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkMeister)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2007, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610/58 "2007-09-19T05:27:23Z")
Another Southwest fan here, although the last few years I mostly flew American because they had a more convenient schedule for all the weekend trips I was making between Raleigh and Chicago. I’m one of those people who always arrives early for my flight anyway, and as long as I have a book I don’t mind lining up to get a preferred seat. As **Voyager** says, there’s not much difference among the in-flight services any more (the last time I flew American I don’t think they even passed out snacks for a two hour flight). The week after Thanksgiving I’ll be flowing Southwest from Raleigh to Las Vegas, which is the longest flight I’ve ever taken with them. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2007, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610/59 "2007-09-19T06:32:12Z")
Is the layover in Philly only for the return trip? I don’t know if this is possible, but what if, instead of boarding a plane in Pittsburgh on the return day, you get on a train, take it to Philadelphia, and join up with them there? Checkng the Amtrack schedules, it looks like even if the airline would play along it’s not really practical. Seven and a half hours for a train to travel three hundred fifty stinkin’ miles–who knew? You could do it faster renting a car. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2007, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610/60 "2007-09-19T10:07:15Z")
Frankfurt bad? I loved Frankfurt compared to a lot of others [we just don’t want to get into philly, puerto rico or de gaul] Everything is under 1 roof. You get off your plane, grab your luggage, go through customs and go down a hallway, underneath is the bus station, then there is a hotel [sheraton?] and another hallway leading to the train station. There are several choices of places to eat, plenty of seriously clean bathrooms, and lots of helpful peopl e who speak english. Heck, I was going to get something to eat in the cafe above the train platform and got bought breakfast by a couple who wanted to practice english. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/damn-airlines-how-the-hell-do-they-get-away-with-this-shit/419610.md?page=4)